Post by Walter on Apr 24, 2017 14:54:39 GMT -5
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Dude? LOL. All of that stuff you are talking about is man made. The Arians didn't win the vote at Nicea...if they had, you would be the heretic.
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Two words, Harry. Holy Spirit.
Recall the holy scripture. Christ told the Apostles that He would send them the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who would "guide them in the way of all truth."
So, you do greatly err when you say that the mysteries and doctrines of the Church were merely man made-- and a result of human deliberation sans Holy Wisdom.
It was rather a process of Theosis-- of the Apostolic and Counciliar judgment of the saints-- those who were co-conscious with the Divine Mind.
As one of the saints once said, the mystical theology of the Church is a "fabric woven on high"-- the precise opposite of man-made.[/quote]
Am familiar with those two words. But, not at all familiar with when the Holy Spirit directed the usage elaborate costumes, gold, jewels, elaborate structures, incense, rituals, a strict hierarchy and all the rest. It's all very convenient...only a select few are chosen who can talk to God without a filter, and not so coincidentally, those chosen are the same ones doing the choosing. God vs. Religion.
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Harry,
It's called Apostolic Succession. Most of the praxis of the Church was derived from the Judaic Temple and synagogues of the first century A.D.-- the structure of the liturgy, psalmody, basilicas, vestiture, and even the form of the eucharistic canon-- which was derived from the Temple rites relating to the tabernacle and the Holy of Holies.
Not surprising, in that the Church was established by observant Jews in the first century Roman Empire.
The criteria of authenticity vs. pseudo- (heretical) praxis in the early Church was, 1) Apostolic Succession of the episcopate and priesthood, 2) canonicty-- i.e., praxis and theoria that was consistent with Apostolic (and scriptural) tradition.
The interesting thing about Martin Luther (and Protestant) SOLA SCRIPURA theology is that it is NOT scriptural-- not in full accord with the Holy Scriptures.
I had figured that much out by the time I was a (Protestant) teenager-- and could give you numerous examples.
If you are truly interested in understanding these issues in early Church history, you need to read St. Eusebius Pamphilius's Ecclesiastical History (328 A.D.) and St. Irenaeus of Lyon's Against Heresies (177 A.D.) Eusebius documents the Apostolic Succession of the early Church, and Ireneaus uses the Holy Scripture to refute the prominent heresies of the first Christian century-- Arianism, Gnosticism, Docetism, Marcionism, etc.
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All I know is that when I was about 7 or 8 years old and finally old enough to sit in the main church instead of the kid's parish on Sundays, my mother asked something like, how did I feel now that I was sitting in God's house? I looked around and asked if she could point me to who was God and where he might be sitting. I don't recall what she said, but it was something like, "...It's not a person. God is everywhere; he's all around us..." I looked to the rafters and in all the areas of the church and still saw nothing. Honest to God, (pun intended), at that moment, my first day in church with adults, I knew something was seriously wrong with the concept, and I've never recovered any faith after that moment.
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I'm reminded of a story told about St. John (Maximovitch) of San Francisco. St. John (a miracle worker and clairvoyant Russian Orthodox Archbishop) was visiting Westminster Abbey toward the end of his life. After standing and praying in the church for awhile, St. John quietly turned to one of his colleagues and said, "There is no Grace here."
St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco
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Miracle worker and clairvoyant, eh?
Dude? LOL. All of that stuff you are talking about is man made. The Arians didn't win the vote at Nicea...if they had, you would be the heretic.
[/quote]
Two words, Harry. Holy Spirit.
Recall the holy scripture. Christ told the Apostles that He would send them the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who would "guide them in the way of all truth."
So, you do greatly err when you say that the mysteries and doctrines of the Church were merely man made-- and a result of human deliberation sans Holy Wisdom.
It was rather a process of Theosis-- of the Apostolic and Counciliar judgment of the saints-- those who were co-conscious with the Divine Mind.
As one of the saints once said, the mystical theology of the Church is a "fabric woven on high"-- the precise opposite of man-made.[/quote]
Am familiar with those two words. But, not at all familiar with when the Holy Spirit directed the usage elaborate costumes, gold, jewels, elaborate structures, incense, rituals, a strict hierarchy and all the rest. It's all very convenient...only a select few are chosen who can talk to God without a filter, and not so coincidentally, those chosen are the same ones doing the choosing. God vs. Religion.
[/quote]
Harry,
It's called Apostolic Succession. Most of the praxis of the Church was derived from the Judaic Temple and synagogues of the first century A.D.-- the structure of the liturgy, psalmody, basilicas, vestiture, and even the form of the eucharistic canon-- which was derived from the Temple rites relating to the tabernacle and the Holy of Holies.
Not surprising, in that the Church was established by observant Jews in the first century Roman Empire.
The criteria of authenticity vs. pseudo- (heretical) praxis in the early Church was, 1) Apostolic Succession of the episcopate and priesthood, 2) canonicty-- i.e., praxis and theoria that was consistent with Apostolic (and scriptural) tradition.
The interesting thing about Martin Luther (and Protestant) SOLA SCRIPURA theology is that it is NOT scriptural-- not in full accord with the Holy Scriptures.
I had figured that much out by the time I was a (Protestant) teenager-- and could give you numerous examples.
If you are truly interested in understanding these issues in early Church history, you need to read St. Eusebius Pamphilius's Ecclesiastical History (328 A.D.) and St. Irenaeus of Lyon's Against Heresies (177 A.D.) Eusebius documents the Apostolic Succession of the early Church, and Ireneaus uses the Holy Scripture to refute the prominent heresies of the first Christian century-- Arianism, Gnosticism, Docetism, Marcionism, etc.
[/quote]
All I know is that when I was about 7 or 8 years old and finally old enough to sit in the main church instead of the kid's parish on Sundays, my mother asked something like, how did I feel now that I was sitting in God's house? I looked around and asked if she could point me to who was God and where he might be sitting. I don't recall what she said, but it was something like, "...It's not a person. God is everywhere; he's all around us..." I looked to the rafters and in all the areas of the church and still saw nothing. Honest to God, (pun intended), at that moment, my first day in church with adults, I knew something was seriously wrong with the concept, and I've never recovered any faith after that moment.
[/quote]
I'm reminded of a story told about St. John (Maximovitch) of San Francisco. St. John (a miracle worker and clairvoyant Russian Orthodox Archbishop) was visiting Westminster Abbey toward the end of his life. After standing and praying in the church for awhile, St. John quietly turned to one of his colleagues and said, "There is no Grace here."
St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco
[/quote]
Miracle worker and clairvoyant, eh?
