How Do You Define 'Socialism?'

[AlaCowboy]

Aug 23, 2018 6:16:09 GMT -5 Walter said:

Aug 22, 2018 23:17:49 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Walter, a city water system or garbage service is not the same as the federal government owning the water systems for the nation. Where I live the city of Huntsville supplies water and electricity to the city and many surrounding communities, but that is not "socialism" as it relates to the nation. You can find isolated examples to suit your own prejudices, but when applied to the United States as a whole, they are not a factor.
If we are to discuss Socialism in America, then it should be when it applies to America, not an isolated or individual community.
For example, if a city having a police force is "socialism" then the federal government should simply establish a national police force and patrol every city and town.

You are making BgVol's argument then. You have no problem with localized socialism but do not approve of it on a federal level. Is that it?

I don't consider what I mentioned "localized socialism" so I can't answer yes or no. You can call it what you want. Individuals cannot provide water and sewer (other than a well and an outhouse), so I have no problem with community program to provide it. I also have no issue with the federal government establishing regulations to ensure that such systems meet minimum standards.
What is interesting is that you and others are suddenly trying to change what you claim to be a democracy into a socialist nation.

[Walter]

Aug 23, 2018 8:10:23 GMT -5 bgovolfan said:

Aug 23, 2018 6:16:09 GMT -5 Walter said:

You are making BgVol's argument then. You have no problem with localized socialism but do not approve of it on a federal level. Is that it?

It isn't that cut and dry...but you already knew that.
Your game of trying to get people to paint themselves into a corner is really getting to be boring. You try to make all things simply black or white..except when it comes to your opinion/definition.


Bg(guess that should be expected from a man puts his foot into his mouth as often as you)VolFan 

Yeah, it is that cut and dry. The definition is explicit. Cowboy posted it. We discussed it last week. I gave an example of it in this thread.
Society is a mixture of all sorts of economic ideas borne of breaking out of economic orthodoxy to solve a problem.
Your problem is simply a refusal to acknowledge that our society has instances where socialism is just a dandy solution to a specific problem.
I honestly do not understand the reluctance of conservatives to acknowledge that obvious reality.

[Walter]

Aug 23, 2018 9:21:40 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Aug 23, 2018 6:16:09 GMT -5 Walter said:

You are making BgVol's argument then. You have no problem with localized socialism but do not approve of it on a federal level. Is that it?

I don't consider what I mentioned "localized socialism" so I can't answer yes or no. You can call it what you want. Individuals cannot provide water and sewer (other than a well and an outhouse), so I have no problem with community program to provide it. I also have no issue with the federal government establishing regulations to ensure that such systems meet minimum standards.
What is interesting is that you and others are suddenly trying to change what you claim to be a democracy into a socialist nation.

How am I doing that?
No, I'm simply taking your acknowledgment that some things are better run in a socialized manner and asking where that might be applied.
The kneejerk conservative response to that query is to assert that I want to "turn America into a socialist nation".

That's absurd, because I can just as easily ask you why we shouldn't privatize a water system if it works better.

For instance, my little town dumped (pun intended) city trash collection and we now farm it out to the Mafia...er...I mean a private company called Athens Services and we pay less for trash collection now. I'm totally cool with that.
How do you reconcile THAT with your little shoebox full of right-wing talking points that I want to "turn America into a socialist nation"?

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2018 23:21:46 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Aug 22, 2018 23:11:16 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Well, let's keep it simple, fella.  Don't be so frightened.

Are you saying that the highly successful modern forms of "democratic socialism" in the world today are not "socialist?"

I beg to differ.   I would define the term more broadly.

Operationally, IMO, the concept is about social/public control of critical resources and services vs. exploitative, for-profit, private ownership.

Utilities, highways, schools, and healthcare are examples of services where the public interest is not necessarily served best by exploitative, for-profit ownership of systems.

See? Rather than discuss, you pompously insult me and proclaim your own superiority and attack "exploitative" for-profit companies. Your idea is the only idea worth your time. No discussion.

Says the dawg who just addressed his initial rebuttal to "the Denver Idiot?"  LOL... 

As for "socialist" phenomena in the U.S.-- it's not all-or-nothing, as you and Harry imply.

Here's an example.  I'll list more as we go.

1)  Our U.S. Interstate highways (a product and service) were built and maintained by the government for the use of the public.

     Therefore, according to the classic definition of "socialism," they are "socialist."

     In contrast, privately owned toll roads would be "capitalist," right?

Would you, Vol, and Harry prefer "socialist" Interstate highways in the U.S., or privately owned, for-profit toll roads?

[daleko]

Aug 22, 2018 23:11:16 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Aug 22, 2018 22:59:02 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Didn't take but one post for The Denver Idiot to go off on a tangent with his rants about the Koch brothers and robber barons. I'm done here.

Utilities, highways, schools, and healthcare are examples of services where the public interest is not necessarily served best by exploitative, for-profit ownership of systems.

My water is operated and served by a private concern. Paid for, in part, by me and every other user, every quarter. Now let's ask the folks in Flint Michigan if they'd rather have my water or theirs in 2014. 

[daleko]

Aug 23, 2018 10:45:16 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Would you, Vol, and Harry prefer "socialist" Interstate highways in the U.S., or privately owned, for-profit toll roads?

Might mean less traffic for those that can pay the toll and wouldn't mind paying it. That's if. 

[oujour76]

Aug 23, 2018 13:50:38 GMT -5 daleko said:

Aug 23, 2018 10:45:16 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Would you, Vol, and Harry prefer "socialist" Interstate highways in the U.S., or privately owned, for-profit toll roads?

Might mean less traffic for those that can pay the toll and wouldn't mind paying it. That's if. 

I prefer Interstate highways without tolls.

[daleko]

Aug 23, 2018 14:00:51 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Aug 23, 2018 13:50:38 GMT -5 daleko said:

Might mean less traffic for those that can pay the toll and wouldn't mind paying it. That's if. 

I prefer Interstate highways without tolls.

As do I. Running through toll booths in Chicago is a bitch.

[daleko]

Aug 23, 2018 10:45:16 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Aug 22, 2018 23:21:46 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

See? Rather than discuss, you pompously insult me and proclaim your own superiority and attack "exploitative" for-profit companies. Your idea is the only idea worth your time. No discussion.

Says the dawg who just addressed his initial rebuttal to "the Denver Idiot?"  LOL... 

As for "socialist" phenomena in the U.S.-- it's not all-or-nothing, as you and Harry imply.

Here's an example.  I'll list more as we go.

1)  Our U.S. Interstate highways (a product and service) were built and maintained by the government for the use of the public.

     Therefore, according to the classic definition of "socialism," they are "socialist."

     In contrast, privately owned toll roads would be "capitalist," right?

Would you, Vol, and Harry prefer "socialist" Interstate highways in the U.S., or privately owned, for-profit toll roads?

That would define the wall wouldn't it. A public service, publicly funded, project that serves the needs of all American citizens to keep America safe from the hordes. Well, as I said before, a wall I am against building.

[oujour76]

Aug 23, 2018 14:07:15 GMT -5 daleko said:

Aug 23, 2018 14:00:51 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

I prefer Interstate highways without tolls.

As do I. Running through toll booths in Chicago is a bitch.

Speaking of which, when are you going to exit and buy me that beer you owe me?

[daleko]

Aug 23, 2018 14:34:35 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Aug 23, 2018 14:07:15 GMT -5 daleko said:

As do I. Running through toll booths in Chicago is a bitch.

Speaking of which, when are you going to exit and buy me that beer you owe me?

Actually thought about it when I said wtf and took 55 to 294, a toll road, and parked there going North amid all of the construction. Thank god I had a "book on tape" going. Learned more than I needed to know about Teddy Roosevelt. Anyway going up 39 is easier BUT soon, as I have to get up there more frequently, the plan is to park a POS pick-up in Milw and fly in. I can then drop down. Your neighbors will think Jed Clampett has come to town. I'm there 3 days at a time once a Q and tons to do, while I'm there handling indep aged living. <shrug>

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2018 15:04:17 GMT -5 daleko said:

Aug 23, 2018 14:34:35 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Speaking of which, when are you going to exit and buy me that beer you owe me?

Actually thought about it when I said wtf and took 55 to 294, a toll road, and parked there going North amid all of the construction. Thank god I had a "book on tape" going. Learned more than I needed to know about Teddy Roosevelt. Anyway going up 39 is easier BUT soon, as I have to get up there more frequently, the plan is to park a POS pick-up in Milw and fly in. I can then drop down. Your neighbors will think Jed Clampett has come to town. I'm there 3 days at a time once a Q and tons to do, while I'm there handling indep aged living. <shrug>

So. You make the rounds servicing the blue hairs?

[Deleted]

Re-posting this thread for ET Gator and Daleko.

[DrSchadenfreude]

In response to Biden's address to Congress, it looks like the Republicans are reduced to invoking the "S" word again-- without even being able to define the term.