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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 9:51:27 GMT -5
Yes, they really exist. Out of production, but they exist.
Good for hunting but, limited to only 4+1 rounds, not too good for defense.
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Post by bamorin on Sept 18, 2018 4:12:59 GMT -5
too bad they didn't make that in 357MAX. I've asked several smiths if they would consider boring the chamber on a .357 lever gun to the MAX length. No takers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 19:48:27 GMT -5
too bad they didn't make that in 357MAX. I've asked several smiths if they would consider boring the chamber on a .357 lever gun to the MAX length. No takers. Economics in Ruger's case, I would think. The .44 Magnum is more popular than the .357 Max, but Ruger still discontinued the Deerfield after a few years.
Manufacturers quit making revolvers for the cartridge because its high pressures were causing "flame cutting" to the guns' topstraps above the barrel/cylinder gap, ruining them.
Why bother rechambering a lever action? The "puny" .30-30 outperforms the .357 Max, and ammunition can be found anywhere. The .357's maximum chamber pressure is 35,000 psi, according to SAAMI. The .357 Max goes all the way to 40,000. It's easy to see why the gunsmiths turned you down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 20:03:29 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 8:12:59 GMT -5
I said they stopped making revolvers for .357 MAX.
Colt, S&W, Ruger, Taurus, Rossi, EAA, Cimarron and Magnum Research all make .44 Magnum revolvers. Probably some lesser-known companies too.
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Post by bamorin on Sept 19, 2018 9:07:12 GMT -5
too bad they didn't make that in 357MAX. I've asked several smiths if they would consider boring the chamber on a .357 lever gun to the MAX length. No takers. Economics in Ruger's case, I would think. The .44 Magnum is more popular than the .357 Max, but Ruger still discontinued the Deerfield after a few years.
Manufacturers quit making revolvers for the cartridge because its high pressures were causing "flame cutting" to the guns' topstraps above the barrel/cylinder gap, ruining them.
Why bother rechambering a lever action? The "puny" .30-30 outperforms the .357 Max, and ammunition can be found anywhere. The .357's maximum chamber pressure is 35,000 psi, according to SAAMI. The .357 Max goes all the way to 40,000. It's easy to see why the gunsmiths turned you down.
while it's true 30-30 can be found anywhere, states like Ohio don't allow a taper case round to be used for deer hunting, nor less than .357 cal. IE a 30 carbine can't be used. As far as the 30-30 out performing the 357MAX as a hunting load.........sorry, nope. Pushing a 180gr PSP out of the 14" bbl contender at 2400fps. Can load heavier bullets. any weight of .358 rifle bullet you can find, i can push down the tube. Reducing the pressure pulse specs you list is easy enough by going to a slower burn rate, to extend time of pressure pulse. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 9:25:40 GMT -5
Economics in Ruger's case, I would think. The .44 Magnum is more popular than the .357 Max, but Ruger still discontinued the Deerfield after a few years.
Manufacturers quit making revolvers for the cartridge because its high pressures were causing "flame cutting" to the guns' topstraps above the barrel/cylinder gap, ruining them.
Why bother rechambering a lever action? The "puny" .30-30 outperforms the .357 Max, and ammunition can be found anywhere. The .357's maximum chamber pressure is 35,000 psi, according to SAAMI. The .357 Max goes all the way to 40,000. It's easy to see why the gunsmiths turned you down.
while it's true 30-30 can be found anywhere, states like Ohio don't allow a taper case round to be used for deer hunting, nor less than .357 cal. IE a 30 carbine can't be used. As far as the 30-30 out performing the 357MAX as a hunting load.........sorry, nope. Pushing a 180gr PSP out of the 14" bbl contender at 2400fps. Can load heavier bullets. any weight of .358 rifle bullet you can find, i can push down the tube. Reducing the pressure pulse specs you list is easy enough by going to a slower burn rate, to extend time of pressure pulse.
The .30-30 doesn't use a tapered case, but a .45-70 does. So Ohio doesn't allow the .45-70 for deer hunting? That is stupid.
Actually almost all rifle cartridge cases are tapered. The difference is whether the case has a shoulder or not. If you are strictly defining "tapered", no rifle is legal for deer hunting in Ohio.
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Post by bamorin on Sept 19, 2018 11:23:01 GMT -5
while it's true 30-30 can be found anywhere, states like Ohio don't allow a taper case round to be used for deer hunting, nor less than .357 cal. IE a 30 carbine can't be used. As far as the 30-30 out performing the 357MAX as a hunting load.........sorry, nope. Pushing a 180gr PSP out of the 14" bbl contender at 2400fps. Can load heavier bullets. any weight of .358 rifle bullet you can find, i can push down the tube. Reducing the pressure pulse specs you list is easy enough by going to a slower burn rate, to extend time of pressure pulse.
The .30-30 doesn't use a tapered case, but a .45-70 does. So Ohio doesn't allow the .45-70 for deer hunting? That is stupid.
Actually almost all rifle cartridge cases are tapered. The difference is whether the case has a shoulder or not. If you are strictly defining "tapered", no rifle is legal for deer hunting in Ohio.
that should have said "necked case" the 45-70 is legal in ohio even though it has a slight taper. The state still calls it 'straight-wall" because it's not necked. The 450 Marlin is the top selling lever gun in ohio now for people switching from shotgun to rifle round. some idiot inclusions in the new "straight wall" classification include the 45ACP. the law used to give not only minimum caliber, but also minimum case length to prevent the .45ACP and others, but include the .45 Long Colt. The 40SW is now legal too. JSMFH..................I do however, at our kids program, advise against such rounds. Especially to the adults attending. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 12:04:21 GMT -5
I understand that hunting in Ohio while wearing a rubber chicken outfit is perfectly legal...
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Post by bamorin on Sept 19, 2018 12:32:52 GMT -5
I understand that hunting in Ohio while wearing a rubber chicken outfit is perfectly legal... Might be, never tried that. however, the Rooster must wear a vest and hat in hunter orange. usually the wildlife officer stands far back while checking the license, keeping one eye on the rooster, and one hand on his ass. Checking times are usually at a very fast pace. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 12:40:27 GMT -5
I understand that hunting in Ohio while wearing a rubber chicken outfit is perfectly legal... Might be, never tried that. however, the Rooster must wear a vest and hat in hunter orange. usually the wildlife officer stands far back while checking the license, keeping one eye on the rooster, and one hand on his ass. Checking times are usually at a very fast pace. FEAR THE ROOSTER! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 13:45:34 GMT -5
If you say so. I'm a traditionalist and stick to normal rounds. There are so many wildcat loads and flash in the pan "wonder cartridges" that I don't worry about them.
The .30-30 doesn't use a tapered case, but a .45-70 does. So Ohio doesn't allow the .45-70 for deer hunting? That is stupid.
Actually almost all rifle cartridge cases are tapered. The difference is whether the case has a shoulder or not. If you are strictly defining "tapered", no rifle is legal for deer hunting in Ohio.
that should have said "necked case" the 45-70 is legal in ohio even though it has a slight taper. The state still calls it 'straight-wall" because it's not necked. The 450 Marlin is the top selling lever gun in ohio now for people switching from shotgun to rifle round. some idiot inclusions in the new "straight wall" classification include the 45ACP. the law used to give not only minimum caliber, but also minimum case length to prevent the .45ACP and others, but include the .45 Long Colt. The 40SW is now legal too. JSMFH..................I do however, at our kids program, advise against such rounds. Especially to the adults attending. OK so now I'm getting confused.
Ammunition with shouldered cases. Legal or no? .45ACP, .40S&W, 9x19MM, and 10MM all use tapered cases. So only cases that have the exact same diameter from base to case mouth are legal?
My main question: WTF does case dimensions have to do with which ammo is suitable for deer and which is not?
If Ohio wanted to make sense, they would simply specify a minimum 50 yard bullet energy as listed by SAAMI to be the lower limit on cartridges suitable for deer hunting.
.44 Magnum from a handgun yields a little over 780 ft/lbs at 50 yards. A .357 Magnum handgun yields about 510 ft/lbs at 50 yards. Both of these of course are dependent on barrel length, type of handgun, etc. etc.
Either of those could be used as minimum power for a deer hunting round, except for muzzle loader season, if Ohio has one.
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Post by bamorin on Sept 19, 2018 14:22:42 GMT -5
that should have said "necked case" the 45-70 is legal in ohio even though it has a slight taper. The state still calls it 'straight-wall" because it's not necked. The 450 Marlin is the top selling lever gun in ohio now for people switching from shotgun to rifle round. some idiot inclusions in the new "straight wall" classification include the 45ACP. the law used to give not only minimum caliber, but also minimum case length to prevent the .45ACP and others, but include the .45 Long Colt. The 40SW is now legal too. JSMFH..................I do however, at our kids program, advise against such rounds. Especially to the adults attending. OK so now I'm getting confused.
Ammunition with shouldered cases. Legal or no? .45ACP, .40S&W, 9x19MM, and 10MM all use tapered cases. So only cases that have the exact same diameter from base to case mouth are legal?
My main question: WTF does case dimensions have to do with which ammo is suitable for deer and which is not?
If Ohio wanted to make sense, they would simply specify a minimum 50 yard bullet energy as listed by SAAMI to be the lower limit on cartridges suitable for deer hunting.
.44 Magnum from a handgun yields a little over 780 ft/lbs at 50 yards. A .357 Magnum handgun yields about 510 ft/lbs at 50 yards. Both of these of course are dependent on barrel length, type of handgun, etc. etc.
Either of those could be used as minimum power for a deer hunting round, except for muzzle loader season, if Ohio has one.
OK, Ohio, when it went to allowing pistol for hunting deer specified 6" barrel minimum, straight wall cartridge in .357mag or larger with a case length of 1" minimum. 50cal is maximum bullet diameter for a pistol by federal law (center fire). there is no muzzle loading pistol allowed for hunting deer. when they decided to allow straight wall rifle, it was with the same regulations. however, in the last couple of years, they've eliminated the case length rule. No matter how many 'sportsmen" in ohio lobbied against removing the case length rule. As I pointed out, there are some pretty impudent rounds allowed for deer hunting. A 45ACP is 390fps of energy, to slightly more, at muzzle. at 100 yards, it ain't got shit. They also changed the barrel length for pistol to 5" minimum from end of chamber to end of barrel. which should eliminate most 1911's as an example. But a 5" bbl revolver is now legal muzzle loading rifles have been dropped from 45cal to 38 cal. minimum single projectile only. Muzzle loaders can be used during the state wide 2 gun seasons, and of course during the various muzzle loading seasons. One state wide, and several zone areas for 'special muzzle loading seasons' straight wall by ohio definition is a non-necked case. I agree with you on energy requirements. which should be calculated at 2 1/2 times, minimum @ 50 yards to the average body weight of deer. the 45ACP and 40SW certainly wouldn't pass that. The division of wildlife in ohio isn't staffed by people who actually know hunting stuff anymore. It's staffed by people who have a bachelors degree in some such nonsense (usually business) who found a secure "state job" with state bennies. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 14:27:57 GMT -5
OK so now I'm getting confused.
Ammunition with shouldered cases. Legal or no? .45ACP, .40S&W, 9x19MM, and 10MM all use tapered cases. So only cases that have the exact same diameter from base to case mouth are legal?
My main question: WTF does case dimensions have to do with which ammo is suitable for deer and which is not?
If Ohio wanted to make sense, they would simply specify a minimum 50 yard bullet energy as listed by SAAMI to be the lower limit on cartridges suitable for deer hunting.
.44 Magnum from a handgun yields a little over 780 ft/lbs at 50 yards. A .357 Magnum handgun yields about 510 ft/lbs at 50 yards. Both of these of course are dependent on barrel length, type of handgun, etc. etc.
Either of those could be used as minimum power for a deer hunting round, except for muzzle loader season, if Ohio has one.
OK, Ohio, when it went to allowing pistol for hunting deer specified 6" barrel minimum, straight wall cartridge in .357mag or larger with a case length of 1" minimum. 50cal is maximum bullet diameter for a pistol by federal law (center fire). there is no muzzle loading pistol allowed for hunting deer. when they decided to allow straight wall rifle, it was with the same regulations. however, in the last couple of years, they've eliminated the case length rule. No matter how many 'sportsmen" in ohio lobbied against removing the case length rule. As I pointed out, there are some pretty impudent rounds allowed for deer hunting. A 45ACP is 390fps of energy, to slightly more, at muzzle. at 100 yards, it ain't got shit. They also changed the barrel length for pistol to 5" minimum from end of chamber to end of barrel. which should eliminate most 1911's as an example. But a 5" bbl revolver is now legal muzzle loading rifles have been dropped from 45cal to 38 cal. minimum single projectile only. Muzzle loaders can be used during the state wide 2 gun seasons, and of course during the various muzzle loading seasons. One state wide, and several zone areas for 'special muzzle loading seasons' straight wall by ohio definition is a non-necked case. I agree with you on energy requirements. which should be calculated at 2 1/2 times, minimum @ 50 yards to the average body weight of deer. the 45ACP and 40SW certainly wouldn't pass that. The division of wildlife in ohio isn't staffed by people who actually know hunting stuff anymore. It's staffed by people who have a bachelors degree in some such nonsense (usually business) who found a secure "state job" with state bennies. Thanks for all that. Remind me NOT to try hunting in Ohio.
Has anyone in authority explained the REASON for the silly case-shape limitations? What is the science behind them?
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Post by bamorin on Sept 19, 2018 15:58:54 GMT -5
OK, Ohio, when it went to allowing pistol for hunting deer specified 6" barrel minimum, straight wall cartridge in .357mag or larger with a case length of 1" minimum. 50cal is maximum bullet diameter for a pistol by federal law (center fire). there is no muzzle loading pistol allowed for hunting deer. when they decided to allow straight wall rifle, it was with the same regulations. however, in the last couple of years, they've eliminated the case length rule. No matter how many 'sportsmen" in ohio lobbied against removing the case length rule. As I pointed out, there are some pretty impudent rounds allowed for deer hunting. A 45ACP is 390fps of energy, to slightly more, at muzzle. at 100 yards, it ain't got shit. They also changed the barrel length for pistol to 5" minimum from end of chamber to end of barrel. which should eliminate most 1911's as an example. But a 5" bbl revolver is now legal muzzle loading rifles have been dropped from 45cal to 38 cal. minimum single projectile only. Muzzle loaders can be used during the state wide 2 gun seasons, and of course during the various muzzle loading seasons. One state wide, and several zone areas for 'special muzzle loading seasons' straight wall by ohio definition is a non-necked case. I agree with you on energy requirements. which should be calculated at 2 1/2 times, minimum @ 50 yards to the average body weight of deer. the 45ACP and 40SW certainly wouldn't pass that. The division of wildlife in ohio isn't staffed by people who actually know hunting stuff anymore. It's staffed by people who have a bachelors degree in some such nonsense (usually business) who found a secure "state job" with state bennies. Thanks for all that. Remind me NOT to try hunting in Ohio.
Has anyone in authority explained the REASON for the silly case-shape limitations? What is the science behind them?
trying to write the laws to the lowest common denominator. However, if you were a hunter, especially a deer hunter, Ohio is a prime area for not only trophy sized racks, but big bodied deer. The next to last one i shot was weighed at the butcher shop at 285 pounds. live on the hoof weight was 340-350 pounds. Our yearling Does are bigger than most anything y'all have in southern Louisiana. |
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