Relegation and promotion

[Walter]

Could it work in college football?

Seems to me it could.
Make FBS into two divisions

My idea: All conferences have both upper and lower divisions.

Teams in upper division play most games against upper D teams and lower play mostly lower.
I say most because I think there still needs to be a connection.

[AlaCowboy]

I would like to see the major conferences paired up and have teams play their opposite ranking team as an OOC game. For instance, SEC and Big10 pair off and Alabama play Michigan, Georgia play Ohio State, etc., to open the season. Then Game 6 would pair SEC against B12. The next year, SEC and B10 plays ACC and Mountain West.

[cbisbig]

Feb 27, 2024 13:43:55 GMT -5 Walter said:

Could it work in college football?

Seems to me it could.
Make FBS into two divisions

My idea: All conferences have both upper and lower divisions.

Teams in upper division play most games against upper D teams and lower play mostly lower.
I say most because I think there still needs to be a connection.

Thats going to put the lower teams not playing upper teams until possibly the conference championship game. I think you need a couple or more games vs good teams to become better.

[DrSchadenfreude]

Note to Wally World...

Remember what happened in the U.S. with unregulated capitalist monopolies in the 19th century-- Standard Oil, Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Jay Gould, Andrew Carnegie, et.al.?

That is, more or less, what has happened to unregulated, capitalist monopolies in college football in the 21st century.

In the absence of fair-and-balanced utilitarian regulation, this is what, inevitably, happens with capitalist monopolies-- the system becomes corrupted by the concentration of wealth, and restricted competition, in the interests of a few Robber Baron monopolies.

[Walter]

Feb 28, 2024 11:22:09 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Note to Wally World...

Remember what happened in the U.S. with unregulated capitalist monopolies in the 19th century-- Standard Oil, Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Jay Gould, Andrew Carnegie, et.al.?

That is, more or less, what has happened to unregulated, capitalist monopolies in college football in the 21st century.

In the absence of fair-and-balanced utilitarian regulation, this is what, inevitably, happens with capitalist monopolies-- the system becomes corrupted by the concentration of wealth, and restricted competition, in the interests of a few Robber Baron monopolies.

Right, because back in the 20th century there was parity in CFB.

[daleko]

Feb 27, 2024 13:43:55 GMT -5 Walter said:

Could it work in college football?

Seems to me it could.
Make FBS into two divisions

My idea: All conferences have both upper and lower divisions.

Teams in upper division play most games against upper D teams and lower play mostly lower.
I say most because I think there still needs to be a connection.

 Ignoring that you can or can't get every independent program/conference in the ncaa to agree, what are you trying to accomplish?

In the Relegation/Promotion concept, those in the lower division never get to play for all the marbles, that year. And then w graduation etc might be back to crap the following year. A pundit I recently read suggested a team like Wisconsin might play to their best outcome, that outcome being in the playoffs, 2 years out of ten. Under R&P they might spend one of those two years getting back. 

It works in the crazy world of Pro Soccer, I guess. The closest, here, might be minor league baseball. Though in BB, the whole team doesn't move up, knowing that only about 10% make it to the show. In either case the club owns the players.

NSM in CFB, w the TP. 

[DrSchadenfreude]

Feb 28, 2024 12:03:59 GMT -5 Walter said:

Feb 28, 2024 11:22:09 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Note to Wally World...

Remember what happened in the U.S. with unregulated capitalist monopolies in the 19th century-- Standard Oil, Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Jay Gould, Andrew Carnegie, et.al.?

That is, more or less, what has happened to unregulated, capitalist monopolies in college football in the 21st century.

In the absence of fair-and-balanced utilitarian regulation, this is what, inevitably, happens with capitalist monopolies-- the system becomes corrupted by the concentration of wealth, and restricted competition, in the interests of a few Robber Baron monopolies.

Right, because back in the 20th century there was parity in CFB.

What college team won the national championship with Jim Thorpe?

Which college teams played in the first Rose Bowl?

It used to be a sport for amateurs.

But the college game has been completely corrupted nowadays by capitalist profiteering.

George F. Will has written some accurate op-eds on the subject.

[AlaCowboy]

Feb 28, 2024 19:45:11 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Feb 28, 2024 12:03:59 GMT -5 Walter said:

Right, because back in the 20th century there was parity in CFB.

What college team won the national championship with Jim Thorpe?

Which college teams played in the first Rose Bowl?

It used to be a sport for amateurs.

But the college game has been completely corrupted nowadays by capitalist profiteering.

George F. Will has written some accurate op-eds on the subject.

100 years ago colleges used to pay players. Some of the top teams had players that were 25 to 30 years old that had played at(and were paid by) several schools over the years. Remember, Thorpe was a paid baseball player for a couple of years while playing football. That got his Olympic medal pulled.

[Walter]

Feb 28, 2024 16:10:13 GMT -5 daleko said:

Feb 27, 2024 13:43:55 GMT -5 Walter said:

Could it work in college football?

Seems to me it could.
Make FBS into two divisions

My idea: All conferences have both upper and lower divisions.

Teams in upper division play most games against upper D teams and lower play mostly lower.
I say most because I think there still needs to be a connection.

 Ignoring that you can or can't get every independent program/conference in the ncaa to agree, what are you trying to accomplish?

In the Relegation/Promotion concept, those in the lower division never get to play for all the marbles, that year. And then w graduation etc might be back to crap the following year. A pundit I recently read suggested a team like Wisconsin might play to their best outcome, that outcome being in the playoffs, 2 years out of ten. Under R&P they might spend one of those two years getting back. 

It works in the crazy world of Pro Soccer, I guess. The closest, here, might be minor league baseball. Though in BB, the whole team doesn't move up, knowing that only about 10% make it to the show. In either case the club owns the players.

NSM in CFB, w the TP. 

A down year for a team wouldn't be the decider, IMO.
Because of the nature of CFB, as you note, it would need to be a pattern over time.
For instance, Vandy has no business being in the SEC in football. Pattern over time.
OTOH, NDakotaSt might move up. Pattern over time. UTEP? Pattern over time.

The point here is that UTEP might step down and become a 10 win school every year at that level. Pattern over time. Back up they go. The program turns a few heads and starts to prosper. Perhaps Rice goes through the same cycle, or Utah St, SanJoseSt, Idaho, etc. For every Rutgers there might be a Liberty waiting for a shot at the bigtime.

If the Pac12 had there been relegation, perhaps WashingtonSt might have flipped with Boise state and Wazzu played in the MWC for a while. Maybe FresnoSt supplants Cal when Cal was awful for almost a decade in a row.

[daleko]

Feb 29, 2024 15:03:02 GMT -5 Walter said:

Feb 28, 2024 16:10:13 GMT -5 daleko said:

 Ignoring that you can or can't get every independent program/conference in the ncaa to agree, what are you trying to accomplish?

In the Relegation/Promotion concept, those in the lower division never get to play for all the marbles, that year. And then w graduation etc might be back to crap the following year. A pundit I recently read suggested a team like Wisconsin might play to their best outcome, that outcome being in the playoffs, 2 years out of ten. Under R&P they might spend one of those two years getting back. 

It works in the crazy world of Pro Soccer, I guess. The closest, here, might be minor league baseball. Though in BB, the whole team doesn't move up, knowing that only about 10% make it to the show. In either case the club owns the players.

NSM in CFB, w the TP. 

A down year for a team wouldn't be the decider, IMO.
Because of the nature of CFB, as you note, it would need to be a pattern over time.
For instance, Vandy has no business being in the SEC in football. Pattern over time.
OTOH, NDakotaSt might move up. Pattern over time. UTEP? Pattern over time.

The point here is that UTEP might step down and become a 10 win school every year at that level. Pattern over time. Back up they go. The program turns a few heads and starts to prosper. Perhaps Rice goes through the same cycle, or Utah St, SanJoseSt, Idaho, etc. For every Rutgers there might be a Liberty waiting for a shot at the bigtime.

If the Pac12 had there been relegation, perhaps WashingtonSt might have flipped with Boise state and Wazzu played in the MWC for a while. Maybe FresnoSt supplants Cal when Cal was awful for almost a decade in a row.

I guess I see what and why, I just don't agree. Probably because "I'm" part of the haves. 

Vandy has $50 million reasons to be in the SEC. Rutgers about $58 million reasons to be in the B1G. Both Conf have schools based on who they want to be associated with.

Today, the money, w the University's approval, goes to the Conf. That the PAC didn't have a decent financial program, WSU may have been OK to swap w X and X w WSU but NW isn't going to swap w NDSU nor would the B1G want them to.

Other than Pro Soccer/World Cup, I don't see R&P as a process. 

[Walter]

Feb 29, 2024 15:46:11 GMT -5 daleko said:

Feb 29, 2024 15:03:02 GMT -5 Walter said:

A down year for a team wouldn't be the decider, IMO.
Because of the nature of CFB, as you note, it would need to be a pattern over time.
For instance, Vandy has no business being in the SEC in football. Pattern over time.
OTOH, NDakotaSt might move up. Pattern over time. UTEP? Pattern over time.

The point here is that UTEP might step down and become a 10 win school every year at that level. Pattern over time. Back up they go. The program turns a few heads and starts to prosper. Perhaps Rice goes through the same cycle, or Utah St, SanJoseSt, Idaho, etc. For every Rutgers there might be a Liberty waiting for a shot at the bigtime.

If the Pac12 had there been relegation, perhaps WashingtonSt might have flipped with Boise state and Wazzu played in the MWC for a while. Maybe FresnoSt supplants Cal when Cal was awful for almost a decade in a row.

I guess I see what and why, I just don't agree. Probably because "I'm" part of the haves. 

Vandy has $50 million reasons to be in the SEC. Rutgers about $58 million reasons to be in the B1G. Both Conf have schools based on who they want to be associated with.

Today, the money, w the University's approval, goes to the Conf. That the PAC didn't have a decent financial program, WSU may have been OK to swap w X and X w WSU but NW isn't going to swap w NDSU nor would the B1G want them to.

Other than Pro Soccer/World Cup, I don't see R&P as a process. 

FTR, this is not a realistic discussion.
I totally get the reasons it would never happen. ($$$$$$)
I'm just talking about it in the context of competitive college football.
The idea of relegation could never work unless the football programs were somehow de-linked from the rest of the sports and college academics in general, etc.
In short, CFB becomes the semi-official minor league of the NFL, a business unto itself.

[daleko]

Feb 29, 2024 16:33:47 GMT -5 Walter said:

Feb 29, 2024 15:46:11 GMT -5 daleko said:

I guess I see what and why, I just don't agree. Probably because "I'm" part of the haves. 

Vandy has $50 million reasons to be in the SEC. Rutgers about $58 million reasons to be in the B1G. Both Conf have schools based on who they want to be associated with.

Today, the money, w the University's approval, goes to the Conf. That the PAC didn't have a decent financial program, WSU may have been OK to swap w X and X w WSU but NW isn't going to swap w NDSU nor would the B1G want them to.

Other than Pro Soccer/World Cup, I don't see R&P as a process. 

FTR, this is not a realistic discussion.
I totally get the reasons it would never happen. ($$$$$$)
I'm just talking about it in the context of competitive college football.
The idea of relegation could never work unless the football programs were somehow de-linked from the rest of the sports and college academics in general, etc.
In short, CFB becomes the semi-official minor league of the NFL, a business unto itself.

Ya that ship sailed decades ago. However, imo, that it, in theory, is not directly connected to the NFL, is why it is so popular.

All 50 States have teams V 22 States w NFL teams. Plus that it is a mixture of professional level talent and those whose FB careers, as players, if they even ever played other than practiced w, end w their last college game.

[dilligaf]

Feb 29, 2024 16:33:47 GMT -5 Walter said:

Feb 29, 2024 15:46:11 GMT -5 daleko said:

I guess I see what and why, I just don't agree. Probably because "I'm" part of the haves. 

Vandy has $50 million reasons to be in the SEC. Rutgers about $58 million reasons to be in the B1G. Both Conf have schools based on who they want to be associated with.

Today, the money, w the University's approval, goes to the Conf. That the PAC didn't have a decent financial program, WSU may have been OK to swap w X and X w WSU but NW isn't going to swap w NDSU nor would the B1G want them to.

Other than Pro Soccer/World Cup, I don't see R&P as a process. 

FTR, this is not a realistic discussion.
I totally get the reasons it would never happen. ($$$$$$)
I'm just talking about it in the context of competitive college football.
The idea of relegation could never work unless the football programs were somehow de-linked from the rest of the sports and college academics in general, etc.
In short, CFB becomes the semi-official minor league of the NFL, a business unto itself.

Let college football be competitive by ending the transfer portal NOW.

When you sign to a school, you are signed TO THAT SCHOOL.

If you get your little feelings hurt at LSU, and you are not a graduate student, then transfer to Nebraska or some place, sit out a year, and lose one year of eligibility.   This would bring back the concept of the STUDENT/athlete, and also give coaches a better look at who really wanted to play and who simply wanted to be a prima donna.

Those games with the "lesser talented" players are normally pretty damn fun to watch.

[Walter]

Mar 1, 2024 4:21:17 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Feb 29, 2024 16:33:47 GMT -5 Walter said:

FTR, this is not a realistic discussion.
I totally get the reasons it would never happen. ($$$$$$)
I'm just talking about it in the context of competitive college football.
The idea of relegation could never work unless the football programs were somehow de-linked from the rest of the sports and college academics in general, etc.
In short, CFB becomes the semi-official minor league of the NFL, a business unto itself.

Let college football be competitive by ending the transfer portal NOW.

When you sign to a school, you are signed TO THAT SCHOOL.

If you get your little feelings hurt at LSU, and you are not a graduate student, then transfer to Nebraska or some place, sit out a year, and lose one year of eligibility.   This would bring back the concept of the STUDENT/athlete, and also give coaches a better look at who really wanted to play and who simply wanted to be a prima donna.

Those games with the "lesser talented" players are normally pretty damn fun to watch.

I might agree with that with one caveat. If a coach leaves or is fired, the portal door opens. If my kid signs with LSU because we think their Oline coach will help junior get to the next level, and then that coach leaves, Junior should be able to go somewhere else.

[oujour76]

Mar 1, 2024 8:06:14 GMT -5 Walter said:

Mar 1, 2024 4:21:17 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Let college football be competitive by ending the transfer portal NOW.

When you sign to a school, you are signed TO THAT SCHOOL.

If you get your little feelings hurt at LSU, and you are not a graduate student, then transfer to Nebraska or some place, sit out a year, and lose one year of eligibility.   This would bring back the concept of the STUDENT/athlete, and also give coaches a better look at who really wanted to play and who simply wanted to be a prima donna.

Those games with the "lesser talented" players are normally pretty damn fun to watch.

I might agree with that with one caveat. If a coach leaves or is fired, the portal door opens. If my kid signs with LSU because we think their Oline coach will help junior get to the next level, and then that coach leaves, Junior should be able to go somewhere else.

Any recourse for the school if Junior leaves of his own accord?