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Post by ihs82 on May 20, 2014 7:58:33 GMT -5
wanna compare usc to penn state? fine. by punishing penn state, the ncaa is saying child molestation cover up is about twice as bad as allowing a star player to be given impermissible benefits. makes sense? right? quantifying how much worse enabling child molestation is to getting free rent? psu punishment: 40 scholarships 4 year bowl ban usc punishment 30 scholarships 2 year bowl ban.
I know we are on opposite sides of what each of us believes but based on what you typed, PSU got off easy. Complicit in child molestation V some free rent. Fortunately for PSU we are a Republic and not a Democracy. Had it been a Democracy the majority of America would have suggested "lynching" (the death penalty) for PSU.
if the ncaa said "we are giving you the death penalty b/c you had a football first culture that enabled the molestation of children", at least it would had made sense. i would have been pissed but the punishment would have made sense comparing it to other punishments. but instead the ncaa said "we are giving you a punishment that is only maybe twice as harsh as a student athlete's family receiving free rent in a house." |
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Post by ihs82 on May 20, 2014 8:04:05 GMT -5
wanna compare usc to penn state? fine. by punishing penn state, the ncaa is saying child molestation cover up is about twice as bad as allowing a star player to be given impermissible benefits. makes sense? right? quantifying how much worse enabling child molestation is to getting free rent? psu punishment: 40 scholarships 4 year bowl ban usc punishment 30 scholarships 2 year bowl ban. 1. ask 100 normal people walking down the street which one is worse. how many do you actually think will say 'free rent'? bad debating idea to walk down that path... 2. your original thread premise was that the ncaa was wrong in the extreme punishment of psu because central pa didn't deserve the economic effects. i repeat my question... is that how you want wrong doers sanctioned? based on how well their community could sustain the financial repercussions?? mark scott tosu 81 1. i don't think you are understanding my point. of course people would think what happened at penn state was worse. it was a billion times worse. therefore, if the ncaa truly had authority to act (they didn't) and if the accusations against penn state were true (still unproven), then penn state football should have received the death penalty. 2. i want wrong doers to be given due process. i want wrong doers to have an opportunity to defend themselves. i don't want wrong doers to have a gun held against their held when they have to make serious decisions. 3. in my original post, i pointed out a blatant lie by the ncaa. you are ok with the ncaa lying about how the handled the situation? |
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Post by beuycek on May 20, 2014 8:04:39 GMT -5
2. your original thread premise was that the ncaa was wrong in the extreme punishment of psu because central pa didn't deserve the economic effects. i repeat my question... is that how you want wrong doers sanctioned? based on how well their community could sustain the financial repercussions?? Mark, The "wrong-doers" in the case against PSU are alleged at the moment.  Seriously, though... the original premise was the wrong approach however I do firmly that if the NCAA was going to overstep their bounds and get involved at all, they absolutely should have considered the far reaching impacts of the unprecedented decision they were about to hand down. I don't know that the harshness of the penalties resulted in the kind of impact most expected initially but they did punish the wrong people, in my opinion. |
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Post by beuycek on May 20, 2014 8:06:34 GMT -5
the ncaa is not the ultimate arbiter on everything involving a participating school. it's a regulatory body for sports rules. they shouldn't be involved with the criminal activity of administrators. Agree here and a very key point that seems to always get lost when this topic is discussed. |
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Post by mscott59 on May 20, 2014 8:32:17 GMT -5
2. your original thread premise was that the ncaa was wrong in the extreme punishment of psu because central pa didn't deserve the economic effects. i repeat my question... is that how you want wrong doers sanctioned? based on how well their community could sustain the financial repercussions?? Mark, The "wrong-doers" in the case against PSU are alleged at the moment. Seriously, though... the original premise was the wrong approach however I do firmly that if the NCAA was going to overstep their bounds and get involved at all, they absolutely should have considered the far reaching impacts of the unprecedented decision they were about to hand down. I don't know that the harshness of the penalties resulted in the kind of impact most expected initially but they did punish the wrong people, in my opinion. mike, that's an inherent fault w/the system. the wrong people are almost ALWAYS punished when ncaa sanctions are involved. by the time any guilt is finally determined, the student-athlete or the coach is often gone, on to their next stop. it's awful. it's unfair. i couldn't agree more. that said, the ncaa is not a court. all the member institutions agree to charge the ncaa w/administering college athletics, and thereby agree to its many rules and regulations. you don't have to go very far to see how uneven the ncaa has been in doling out punitive decisions. the psu scenario is precedent-setting, no doubt, in terms of it's more loose connections to on-the-field activity, even though at the core you could certainly argue that the football program was at the center every decision made by the psu ad, president, et al. and as far as the ncaa is concerned, the 'wrong-doers' became 'wrong-doers' when psu accepted the severe sanctions. psu's execs are alleged to have violated the law in a criminal court. i've asked this before, and i don't know if anyone has had an answer. if not the ncaa, what be the alternative? should the bigger schools be self-governing? in terms of the $$ involved, that certainly seems where we're headed, but does anyone really believe that's in the best interest of college athletics as a whole? what's to keep an osu, usc, alabama or texas from lessening the academic requirements altogether if they're making their own rules? or paying players? or allowing them to cash in on whatever fame they've earned on the field via endorsements, commercial opportunities, etc.? does anyone really think that will be better? or less messy? the $$ involved in cfb and hoops is hard to ignore. and the ncaa is complicit as a taker when it comes to the tournament. a stipend for players in the larger leagues is inevitable. but not every program in the big leagues is making money. the majority of them don't. so that will create even more of a have/have not division. maybe the evolution to a club team sponsored by schools instead of teams made up of college students is inevitable too. i hope not. but imho you still need an independent administrator to run college sports. w/the power to keep the programs in line who don't have the discipline to do it themselves. sorry. wordy post. mark scott tosu 81 |
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Post by mscott59 on May 20, 2014 8:35:57 GMT -5
the ncaa is not the ultimate arbiter on everything involving a participating school. it's a regulatory body for sports rules. they shouldn't be involved with the criminal activity of administrators. Agree here and a very key point that seems to always get lost when this topic is discussed. the ncaa is not just for sports rules on the field; it also is there to make sure that athletic depts run their operations within the rules of college sports. and i will repeat that the ncaa's actions against psu were both precedent-setting and debatable in terms of their reach of administrating the sport. mark scott tosu 81 |
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Post by canefan on May 20, 2014 8:40:56 GMT -5
I honestly haven't followed the Penn State issue closely enough to know any of the details. But, as to the NCAA lying or threatening, that I can say I have no doubt they have no problem doing. They were exposed several times in Miami investigation doing exactly that, but everytime they played that card against Miami they were called on it and backed down. They threatened Dyron Dye with further sanctions over a year after he served his suspension, trying to force him to say something else, which I cannot even remember right now, and he wound up suing them and the investigator for their tactics. The sent letters to former athletes stating they had to agree to talk to them or they would be banned from the campus for life. Obviously something they had no authority to do and, much to our delight, the school told them to go F themselves. I believe the attorney that wrote that letter eventually was fired. There was another threat issued too, that was ignored, but honestly we had so much bullshit thrown around for a couple of years it got hard to keep track of everything.
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Post by beuycek on May 20, 2014 9:26:58 GMT -5
the psu scenario is precedent-setting, no doubt, in terms of it's more loose connections to on-the-field activity, even though at the core you could certainly argue that the football program was at the center every decision made by the psu ad, president, et al. The argument can be made but I think it is a loose one given what we know about Paterno's attempts to distance himself and the program from Sandusky during that time. The AD, President, et al... well, we will see what comes out of their trials as to how much the football program played a part in their decision-making, or lack thereof as it were. I see your point but until we get through the trials of Schultz, Spanier, etc. I think it is a tough argument to make. Fair enough and without getting into all of the details again, there may well be some very good reasons why folks chose that route. A lot of high-profile reputations may have been at stake if anyone would have been willing to try to connect the dots. Given the public outcry when the story broke, I think it was clear that PSU was going to act and act swiftly. That action may or may not have been to liking of the masses but I don't think anyone believes they were going to try to let the hysteria die down without doing something. The NCAA, though, saw a chance to improve its image and pounced. I definitely agree with ihs here in that is was a total PR move that preyed on the fact that the media was camped out in Happy Valley looking for blood. And Emmert was all to happy to slice open the first wound to provide it. A slippery slope for sure but again, I think PSU could have acted in a prudent manner without the help of the NCAA. And in doing so could have avoided opening any other cans of worms in the process. Just my opinion, though. Unfortunately, Emmert (or Corbett/Erickson) never gave them the chance. Back at ya! |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on May 20, 2014 10:00:53 GMT -5
I've pretty much tried to stay away from this, for some obvious reasons.
However, It's been so long now, some of the smaller details are being overlooked. I do recall early on, more than one person saying in the interviews/questioning that JoePa knew EVERYTHING that happened on campus, and (the one in particular I remember was a janitor in a gym/locker room)there was no doubt in this guy's mind that Paterno knew exactly what was happening. I also remember (I think) examples of the smallest details happening, and that JoePa's spies always informed him of what was happening in Happy Valley. JMHO, but I think the NCAA believed that as well, and part of the punishment was for JoePa before he retired/died.
Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but I think at the most, only 50... : )
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Post by ihs82 on May 20, 2014 10:54:52 GMT -5
I've pretty much tried to stay away from this, for some obvious reasons. However, It's been so long now, some of the smaller details are being overlooked. I do recall early on, more than one person saying in the interviews/questioning that JoePa knew EVERYTHING that happened on campus, and (the one in particular I remember was a janitor in a gym/locker room)there was no doubt in this guy's mind that Paterno knew exactly what was happening. I also remember (I think) examples of the smallest details happening, and that JoePa's spies always informed him of what was happening in Happy Valley. JMHO, but I think the NCAA believed that as well, and part of the punishment was for JoePa before he retired/died. Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but I think at the most, only 50... : ) i actually heard that paterno was the guy actually in charge of the gambino crime family. and when he wasn't ordering the cover up of his child molesting assistant coach, he was ordering the executions of dozens of rivals in new york city. |
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Post by oujour76 on May 20, 2014 11:07:47 GMT -5
I want to know why an organization monitors the amount of cream cheese a student puts on a bagel. It's far more understandable they'd get involved in a child molestation coverup. i am not making up the bagel topping thing but i wish i was. the ncaa wouldn't allow schools to offer student athletes toppings on bagels until just a few years ago. the ncaa had to amend their rules to allow member institutions to offer butter, peanut butter, jelly and cream cheese at the request of the big east. sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/By-2012-cream-cheese-may-no-longer-be-an-NCAA-v?urn=ncaab-wp4181but my point being that the ncaa is not the ultimate arbiter on everything involving a participating school. it's a regulatory body for sports rules. they shouldn't be involved with the criminal activity of administrators. they piled on for pr purposes. |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on May 20, 2014 11:32:50 GMT -5
I've pretty much tried to stay away from this, for some obvious reasons. However, It's been so long now, some of the smaller details are being overlooked. I do recall early on, more than one person saying in the interviews/questioning that JoePa knew EVERYTHING that happened on campus, and (the one in particular I remember was a janitor in a gym/locker room)there was no doubt in this guy's mind that Paterno knew exactly what was happening. I also remember (I think) examples of the smallest details happening, and that JoePa's spies always informed him of what was happening in Happy Valley. JMHO, but I think the NCAA believed that as well, and part of the punishment was for JoePa before he retired/died. Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but I think at the most, only 50... : ) i actually heard that paterno was the guy actually in charge of the gambino crime family. and when he wasn't ordering the cover up of his child molesting assistant coach, he was ordering the executions of dozens of rivals in new york city. Hey, it's coming from an insider, I guess I should take that to the bank, eh? I mean, why would YOU lie?
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Post by canefan on May 20, 2014 16:36:30 GMT -5
I've pretty much tried to stay away from this, for some obvious reasons. However, It's been so long now, some of the smaller details are being overlooked. I do recall early on, more than one person saying in the interviews/questioning that JoePa knew EVERYTHING that happened on campus, and (the one in particular I remember was a janitor in a gym/locker room)there was no doubt in this guy's mind that Paterno knew exactly what was happening. I also remember (I think) examples of the smallest details happening, and that JoePa's spies always informed him of what was happening in Happy Valley. JMHO, but I think the NCAA believed that as well, and part of the punishment was for JoePa before he retired/died. Of course, I could be 100% wrong, but I think at the most, only 50... : ) i actually heard that paterno was the guy actually in charge of the gambino crime family. and when he wasn't ordering the cover up of his child molesting assistant coach, he was ordering the executions of dozens of rivals in new york city. Well, his name did end in a vowel!!! |
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Post by ihs82 on May 21, 2014 8:11:08 GMT -5
i actually heard that paterno was the guy actually in charge of the gambino crime family. and when he wasn't ordering the cover up of his child molesting assistant coach, he was ordering the executions of dozens of rivals in new york city. Hey, it's coming from an insider, I guess I should take that to the bank, eh? I mean, why would YOU lie?
yea paterno knew a lot. he knew sandusky was weird. sandusky hated paterno and paterno hated sandusky. but it's still a leap to conclude that paterno intentionally covered up sandusky's behavior to protect his football team. you can criticize paterno for not doing enough w/o assuming malicious intent. my beef with the ncaa/freeh/psu bot's adoption of freeh is they concluded malicious intent. |
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