HALL OF FAME

[beuycek]

Jan 8, 2015 11:54:22 GMT -5 Walter said:

Couldn't hit the curveball?

That was my downfall as well....along with not being able to hit the fastball either, no arm and poor fielding ability. Thing was, I really loved playing baseball.

Sounds a lot like me. I was the exact opposite of Mike Piazza... I was a heck of a catcher defensively but really couldn't do much else. That ultimately drove me to the basketball court where I had a much better career.

I always thought it was east coast bias kept me out of the bigs.

There might be something to that...

[daleko]

Jan 8, 2015 9:37:20 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Jan 8, 2015 8:44:45 GMT -5 canefan said:

If you watch a lot of baseball this year, pay attention to the pitch counts. I have noticed over the years that once a guy hits 100 pitches in a game typically his effectiveness begins to decrease quite a bit. There are exceptions of course, but typically their velocity drops and the movement on their breaking stuff decreases and they start to get hit a lot harder.

Could it be because they have only trained their arms to throw that many pitches, thus they tire out? That seems to support my theory.

I won't disagree on the velocity part, though. There are more guy throwing in the mid to upper 90s but reardless of velocity, 99mph fastballs still put a lot less stress on an arm than 85mph sliders and curveballs.

You have a lot of parts contributing at the MLB level, imo. PEDs, used primarily by the hitters, though not exclusively, put more pressure on the pitchers to "over achieve" from their given talents, stressing the arm. Money available to play the game contributes by causing the pressure to exceed their given talents. Short term you can do it but it eventually catches up. Additionally, money motivates teams and players to shorten the learning curve, taking the attitude of sooner is better. Throw in the number of teams currently at the MLB level and the demand is higher for any kind of talent, which often gets abused to get them MLB ready sooner.

And youth coaches/parents sometimes don't help. That star at 12-16 becomes star crossed at 19-23. But baseball isn't alone. I saw it in swimming. Some kids are just better, early or just better period. All the training in the world doesn't make up for superior talent that also trained. In many cases, "sports" is asking kid's (or at least many of them) bodies do things they just were meant to do long term. You see it a lot more in women's sports, absent FP SB where they adapted the game and how it is played.

[mscott59]

Jan 8, 2015 10:18:14 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Another interesting note regarding Randy Johnson... he was chosen by the Atlanta Braves in the 4th round of the 1982 MLB Draft. The Braves also selected a SS in that draft in the 13th round out of Ashtabula, OH. A kid by the name of Urban Meyer.

in the words/phrasing of johnny carson, i did not know that.

[mscott59]

Jan 8, 2015 12:52:15 GMT -5 daleko said:

Jan 8, 2015 9:37:20 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Could it be because they have only trained their arms to throw that many pitches, thus they tire out? That seems to support my theory.

I won't disagree on the velocity part, though. There are more guy throwing in the mid to upper 90s but reardless of velocity, 99mph fastballs still put a lot less stress on an arm than 85mph sliders and curveballs.

You have a lot of parts contributing at the MLB level, imo. PEDs, used primarily by the hitters, though not exclusively, put more pressure on the pitchers to "over achieve" from their given talents, stressing the arm. Money available to play the game contributes by causing the pressure to exceed their given talents. Short term you can do it but it eventually catches up. Additionally, money motivates teams and players to shorten the learning curve, taking the attitude of sooner is better. Throw in the number of teams currently at the MLB level and the demand is higher for any kind of talent, which often gets abused to get them MLB ready sooner.

And youth coaches/parents sometimes don't help. That star at 12-16 becomes star crossed at 19-23. But baseball isn't alone. I saw it in swimming. Some kids are just better, early or just better period. All the training in the world doesn't make up for superior talent that also trained. In many cases, "sports" is asking kid's (or at least many of them) bodies do things they just were meant to do long term. You see it a lot more in women's sports, absent FP SB where they adapted the game and how it is played.

up until the late 60s/early 70s, when mlb lowered the mound height, i think most of your 'great' pitchers didn't need more than two 'go-to' pitches. heat and some kind of off-speed was enough. but delivering the ball from less altitude, imho over time pitchers needed a 3rd, sometimes a 4th, option to combat that advantage for the batter. same for the 'roid era. power pitchers don't usually have elbow problems; they have shoulder problems. but mix in the curve, or a slider, or a split-finger, circle change, etc, you've got more elbow stress. and although the 21st century athlete has more muscle and better health science in his/her favor, the anatomy of ligaments and tendons are still the same. there's more stress, too.

[Walter]

Jan 8, 2015 14:55:51 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Jan 8, 2015 10:18:14 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Another interesting note regarding Randy Johnson... he was chosen by the Atlanta Braves in the 4th round of the 1982 MLB Draft. The Braves also selected a SS in that draft in the 13th round out of Ashtabula, OH. A kid by the name of Urban Meyer.

in the words/phrasing of johnny carson, i did not know that.

...or...

[canefan]

Jan 8, 2015 11:54:22 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 8, 2015 10:18:14 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Another interesting note regarding Randy Johnson... he was chosen by the Atlanta Braves in the 4th round of the 1982 MLB Draft. The Braves also selected a SS in that draft in the 13th round out of Ashtabula, OH. A kid by the name of Urban Meyer.

Couldn't hit the curveball?

That was my downfall as well....along with not being able to hit the fastball either, no arm and poor fielding ability. Thing was, I really loved playing baseball.

I always thought it was east coast bias kept me out of the bigs.

Ain't that the truth. I was Pedro Cerano. Couldn't throw a fastball by me but when guys started throwing real breaking stuff my bat shrunk.

[canefan]

Jan 8, 2015 15:03:33 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Jan 8, 2015 12:52:15 GMT -5 daleko said:

You have a lot of parts contributing at the MLB level, imo. PEDs, used primarily by the hitters, though not exclusively, put more pressure on the pitchers to "over achieve" from their given talents, stressing the arm. Money available to play the game contributes by causing the pressure to exceed their given talents. Short term you can do it but it eventually catches up. Additionally, money motivates teams and players to shorten the learning curve, taking the attitude of sooner is better. Throw in the number of teams currently at the MLB level and the demand is higher for any kind of talent, which often gets abused to get them MLB ready sooner.

And youth coaches/parents sometimes don't help. That star at 12-16 becomes star crossed at 19-23. But baseball isn't alone. I saw it in swimming. Some kids are just better, early or just better period. All the training in the world doesn't make up for superior talent that also trained. In many cases, "sports" is asking kid's (or at least many of them) bodies do things they just were meant to do long term. You see it a lot more in women's sports, absent FP SB where they adapted the game and how it is played.

up until the late 60s/early 70s, when mlb lowered the mound height, i think most of your 'great' pitchers didn't need more than two 'go-to' pitches. heat and some kind of off-speed was enough. but delivering the ball from less altitude, imho over time pitchers needed a 3rd, sometimes a 4th, option to combat that advantage for the batter. same for the 'roid era. power pitchers don't usually have elbow problems; they have shoulder problems. but mix in the curve, or a slider, or a split-finger, circle change, etc, you've got more elbow stress. and although the 21st century athlete has more muscle and better health science in his/her favor, the anatomy of ligaments and tendons are still the same. there's more stress, too.

Roids didn't help either. Lot of guys roided up too strong for some of their tredons, joints, etc.

[canefan]

Jan 8, 2015 9:37:20 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Jan 8, 2015 8:44:45 GMT -5 canefan said:

If you watch a lot of baseball this year, pay attention to the pitch counts. I have noticed over the years that once a guy hits 100 pitches in a game typically his effectiveness begins to decrease quite a bit. There are exceptions of course, but typically their velocity drops and the movement on their breaking stuff decreases and they start to get hit a lot harder.

Could it be because they have only trained their arms to throw that many pitches, thus they tire out? That seems to support my theory.

I won't disagree on the velocity part, though. There are more guy throwing in the mid to upper 90s but reardless of velocity, 99mph fastballs still put a lot less stress on an arm than 85mph sliders and curveballs.

You know it's possible, but training and conditioning is so much better today. More likely it's a combination, all of the above thing. You watch these guys throw in slow motion and the angles their arms bend and twist is incredible.

[canefan]

Jan 8, 2015 12:52:15 GMT -5 daleko said:

Jan 8, 2015 9:37:20 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Could it be because they have only trained their arms to throw that many pitches, thus they tire out? That seems to support my theory.

I won't disagree on the velocity part, though. There are more guy throwing in the mid to upper 90s but reardless of velocity, 99mph fastballs still put a lot less stress on an arm than 85mph sliders and curveballs.

You have a lot of parts contributing at the MLB level, imo. PEDs, used primarily by the hitters, though not exclusively, put more pressure on the pitchers to "over achieve" from their given talents, stressing the arm. Money available to play the game contributes by causing the pressure to exceed their given talents. Short term you can do it but it eventually catches up. Additionally, money motivates teams and players to shorten the learning curve, taking the attitude of sooner is better. Throw in the number of teams currently at the MLB level and the demand is higher for any kind of talent, which often gets abused to get them MLB ready sooner.

And youth coaches/parents sometimes don't help. That star at 12-16 becomes star crossed at 19-23. But baseball isn't alone. I saw it in swimming. Some kids are just better, early or just better period. All the training in the world doesn't make up for superior talent that also trained. In many cases, "sports" is asking kid's (or at least many of them) bodies do things they just were meant to do long term. You see it a lot more in women's sports, absent FP SB where they adapted the game and how it is played.

Parents can drive you crazy in those youth leagues. When I was coaching there I drafted good parents as much as I did kids. We had a GYN surgeon that drove me crazy. Guy was convinced his kid was going to be Roger Clemmons. Nine years old and he had him throwing curves and trying to throw a splitter. Kid came up with a sore elbow by the end of the season and I had to practically beg him to go get the elbow xrayed. He brought me the film's at the ballpark. Kid had a slipped epiphysis, the ortho in his group told him, I told him, and he still wanted to know if he could throw a few innings.

[AlaCowboy]

I met a couple of pitchers from the old Milwaukee Braves at an Atlanta Braves function once. Both had right arms that were so twisted that the back of their hand touched their leg rather than the palm. Stand up and look down at your right hand.
I was told that was common for MLB pitchers with long careers.