HALL OF FAME

[AlaCowboy]

Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, and Craig Biggio. What a great selection!!!
And Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds lose out again. Bad publicity and bad attitudes overwhelm them.

[Deleted]

And McGuire too. Cheaters getting what they deserve.
I was kinda hoping Piazza got in too.

[Buckeye Dale]

Jan 6, 2015 18:39:02 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, and Craig Biggio. What a great selection!!!
And Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds lose out again. Bad publicity and bad attitudes overwhelm them.

Biggio surprised me...I thought he was GOOD, but I didn't think he was HOF good...Oh well...

[oujour76]

Jan 7, 2015 9:13:39 GMT -5 Buckeye Dale said:

Jan 6, 2015 18:39:02 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, and Craig Biggio. What a great selection!!!
And Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds lose out again. Bad publicity and bad attitudes overwhelm them.

Biggio surprised me...I thought he was GOOD, but I didn't think he was HOF good...Oh well...

3,000 hits will usually get you a place at the table. When he played I always wondered how he could see to hit the ball.....his helmet always looked 2 sizes too big.

[AlaCowboy]

Jan 6, 2015 21:43:32 GMT -5 @chadgristlethrob said:

And McGuire too. Cheaters getting what they deserve.
I was kinda hoping Piazza got in too.

Piazza was a great defensive catcher that could hit a ton. Best I saw since Johnny Bench. I suppose the PEDs rumor is holding him back a bit but he gets closer every year. I think he'll make it next year. I thought he was once married to Tommy Lasordas daughter. Am I right?

[Walter]

Jan 7, 2015 12:28:54 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Jan 6, 2015 21:43:32 GMT -5 @chadgristlethrob said:

And McGuire too. Cheaters getting what they deserve.
I was kinda hoping Piazza got in too.

Piazza was a great defensive catcher that could hit a ton. Best I saw since Johnny Bench. I suppose the PEDs rumor is holding him back a bit but he gets closer every year. I think he'll make it next year. I thought he was once married to Tommy Lasordas daughter. Am I right?

Disagree. He had a rep for being easy to run on.
He led the league in most stolen bases allowed by a catcher 5 times and was nearly always at the top of that list. He also led the league in errors by a catcher three times. If he had been an average or below average hitter, I doubt he'd have ever made it to the bigs.

[oujour76]

Jan 7, 2015 12:28:54 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Jan 6, 2015 21:43:32 GMT -5 @chadgristlethrob said:

And McGuire too. Cheaters getting what they deserve.
I was kinda hoping Piazza got in too.

Piazza was a great defensive catcher that could hit a ton. Best I saw since Johnny Bench. I suppose the PEDs rumor is holding him back a bit but he gets closer every year. I think he'll make it next year. I thought he was once married to Tommy Lasordas daughter. Am I right?

Piazza has the numbers, to be sure. FWIW, defensively he wasn't bad, except for being able to throw out runners. He was below average in that category. No doubt the PED rumors have hurt his chances at Cooperstown. IMO, there is no doubt he juiced and juiced heavily.

That said, there is no proof so he should be judged on his numbers, not opinions or rumors.

Finally, Piazza is not married to Tommy Lasorda's daughter, named Laura. Pretty sure that Lasorda is, however, related to the Piazza family (3rd or 4th cousin or something) and he is the godfather of Tommy Piazza, Mike's brother.

For most of Mike's career, it was reported that Lasorda was his godfather. That was never true, but it made for a good story, so everyone kind of went along with it.

[beuycek]

As a Mets fan, I can assure you Mike Piazza was anything but a good defensive catcher. He was an outright liability but catchers aren't usually judged by their defensive ability in terms of the HOF. Shortstops? Sure but not catchers. And with his offensive numbers, I am shocked Biggio got in ahead of Piazza. If you compare them head to head, it isn't even close. Yes, Biggio had 3000 hits but he also played 4 more years than Piazza and average nearly 150 more PAs a year.

I will take an average line of .308, 26, 83 over .281, 14, 59 any day of the week.

Piazza will get in eventually but I don't agree at all with Biggio being in. Very good player but not HOF-worthy.

[mscott59]

Jan 7, 2015 18:05:32 GMT -5 beuycek said:

As a Mets fan, I can assure you Mike Piazza was anything but a good defensive catcher. He was an outright liability but catchers aren't usually judged by their defensive ability in terms of the HOF. Shortstops? Sure but not catchers. And with his offensive numbers, I am shocked Biggio got in ahead of Piazza. If you compare them head to head, it isn't even close. Yes, Biggio had 3000 hits but he also played 4 more years than Piazza and average nearly 150 more PAs a year.

I will take an average line of .308, 26, 83 over .281, 14, 59 any day of the week.

Piazza will get in eventually but I don't agree at all with Biggio being in. Very good player but not HOF-worthy.

Wanted to bring up another inductee. Randy Johnson had to be the most intimidating pitcher to face in this generation. At 6'10, when his stride went toward home plate and he released the ball with those long arms, it had to look like he was 15 feet away from the batters box. I remember him coming up with the expos, that physique, that heat, and that feeling that even he was 100% sure where the pitch was headed. Watching kris try to hit him by bailing his lead foot into the dugout during the all star game is EXACTLY what my scrawny ass as a hs 2nd baseman would've been doing. Lol.

The other thing is that Johnson had 303 wins. You wonder if he might be the last of that breed. Sabathia is the closest active pitcher who IMHO has a remote chance at 33 years old (208 wins). Real remote. Verlander is 31 and has 152. Can he average 15/year for the next decade? One of my buddies says its kershaw (26/98 wins) but he would also need to get 15/16 wins a season til he's 40. I would say bumgarner (24/67 wins) is the only other possibility who's pitching right now. Anyone else have a thought? Is the big unit the last 300+ win unit?

[Walter]

Jan 7, 2015 19:46:23 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Jan 7, 2015 18:05:32 GMT -5 beuycek said:

As a Mets fan, I can assure you Mike Piazza was anything but a good defensive catcher. He was an outright liability but catchers aren't usually judged by their defensive ability in terms of the HOF. Shortstops? Sure but not catchers. And with his offensive numbers, I am shocked Biggio got in ahead of Piazza. If you compare them head to head, it isn't even close. Yes, Biggio had 3000 hits but he also played 4 more years than Piazza and average nearly 150 more PAs a year.

I will take an average line of .308, 26, 83 over .281, 14, 59 any day of the week.

Piazza will get in eventually but I don't agree at all with Biggio being in. Very good player but not HOF-worthy.

Wanted to bring up another inductee. Randy Johnson had to be the most intimidating pitcher to face in this generation. At 6'10, when his stride went toward home plate and he released the ball with those long arms, it had to look like he was 15 feet away from the batters box. I remember him coming up with the expos, that physique, that heat, and that feeling that even he was 100% sure where the pitch was headed. Watching kris try to hit him by bailing his lead foot into the dugout during the all star game is EXACTLY what my scrawny ass as a hs 2nd baseman would've been doing. Lol.

The other thing is that Johnson had 303 wins. You wonder if he might be the last of that breed. Sabathia is the closest active pitcher who IMHO has a remote chance at 33 years old (208 wins). Real remote. Verlander is 31 and has 152. Can he average 15/year for the next decade? One of my buddies says its kershaw (26/98 wins) but he would also need to get 15/16 wins a season til he's 40. I would say bumgarner (24/67 wins) is the only other possibility who's pitching right now. Anyone else have a thought? Is the big unit the last 300+ win unit?

In today's world of 100 pitch "quality" starts, the specialization of pitchers and the sheer lack of innings pitched in comparison to yesteryear, I think I agree.
Doubt it's possible, but it would be interesting to see if a stat could be assembled of 300 game winners whose teams bailed them out and came back to win or broke a tie and got them a W solely because they hung around into the later innings. That nearly never happens today. How many games would be subtracted from the win total if you artificially yanked each HOF pitcher after, say 110 pitches in every start he made.

[beuycek]

Jan 7, 2015 21:04:27 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 7, 2015 19:46:23 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Wanted to bring up another inductee. Randy Johnson had to be the most intimidating pitcher to face in this generation. At 6'10, when his stride went toward home plate and he released the ball with those long arms, it had to look like he was 15 feet away from the batters box. I remember him coming up with the expos, that physique, that heat, and that feeling that even he was 100% sure where the pitch was headed. Watching kris try to hit him by bailing his lead foot into the dugout during the all star game is EXACTLY what my scrawny ass as a hs 2nd baseman would've been doing. Lol.

The other thing is that Johnson had 303 wins. You wonder if he might be the last of that breed. Sabathia is the closest active pitcher who IMHO has a remote chance at 33 years old (208 wins). Real remote. Verlander is 31 and has 152. Can he average 15/year for the next decade? One of my buddies says its kershaw (26/98 wins) but he would also need to get 15/16 wins a season til he's 40. I would say bumgarner (24/67 wins) is the only other possibility who's pitching right now. Anyone else have a thought? Is the big unit the last 300+ win unit?

In today's world of 100 pitch "quality" starts, the specialization of pitchers and the sheer lack of innings pitched in comparison to yesteryear, I think I agree.
Doubt it's possible, but it would be interesting to see if a stat could be assembled of 300 game winners whose teams bailed them out and came back to win or broke a tie and got them a W solely because they hung around into the later innings. That nearly never happens today. How many games would be subtracted from the win total if you artificially yanked each HOF pitcher after, say 110 pitches in every start he made.

I agree, I think we have seen the last of the 300 game winners. From 5-man rotations (and now sometimes 6) and specialized pitchers from the 6th inning on, pitchers simply don't have as many chances to win as they used to.

BTW, pitch counts are one of the most overrated ideas the game has ever seen. It isn't how many pitches you throw, it what kind of pitches you throw and how often you thrown them in close succession. Back in the old days, pitchers got their arms in shape by throwing a lot, not by saving their arms. Pitchers get hurt because they don't "train" their arms enough and don't use enough of their legs and when they do turn it loose, they are stressing their ligaments with sliders and other arm-killing pitches. If a guy throws 150 pitches and 75% of them are fastballs and changeups, I would be willing to bet he lasts a lot longer than a guy held back to 100 pitches but throws mostly junk.

Ok, rant over but you get my point.

[canefan]

Jan 7, 2015 22:37:50 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Jan 7, 2015 21:04:27 GMT -5 Walter said:

In today's world of 100 pitch "quality" starts, the specialization of pitchers and the sheer lack of innings pitched in comparison to yesteryear, I think I agree.
Doubt it's possible, but it would be interesting to see if a stat could be assembled of 300 game winners whose teams bailed them out and came back to win or broke a tie and got them a W solely because they hung around into the later innings. That nearly never happens today. How many games would be subtracted from the win total if you artificially yanked each HOF pitcher after, say 110 pitches in every start he made.

I agree, I think we have seen the last of the 300 game winners. From 5-man rotations (and now sometimes 6) and specialized pitchers from the 6th inning on, pitchers simply don't have as many chances to win as they used to.

BTW, pitch counts are one of the most overrated ideas the game has ever seen. It isn't how many pitches you throw, it what kind of pitches you throw and how often you thrown them in close succession. Back in the old days, pitchers got their arms in shape by throwing a lot, not by saving their arms. Pitchers get hurt because they don't "train" their arms enough and don't use enough of their legs and when they do turn it loose, they are stressing their ligaments with sliders and other arm-killing pitches. If a guy throws 150 pitches and 75% of them are fastballs and changeups, I would be willing to bet he lasts a lot longer than a guy held back to 100 pitches but throws mostly junk.

Ok, rant over but you get my point.

Yes and no. In the old days pitchers did throw a whole lot more pitches on average. However, back then, even when I was a kid in the 60's, the guy who could bring it in the 90's was not common. Now days it seems most teams have one or two guys who can hit triple digits. The Royals entire bullpen this year seemed to be full of guys who threw 95 or above. This puts a lot more stress on the arm than the guys throwing in the 80's and the pitches add up. Throw in the use of a lot of different things they do with pitches now days, cutters, sliders, split fingers, etc., and everything is cumulative. We have friends whose youngest son was the 2nd overall pick in the baseball draft a couple of years ago, a pitcher who throws in the upper 90's coming out of high school. I told my sons at the time not to get too excited about him making it to the bigs because he is one of those 6'7" or so guys who throws close to 100 mph and so many of those guys wind up blowing out their elbows from the stress. Sure enough, he missed this last year after having elbow surgery only a couple of years after being drafted. If you watch a lot of baseball this year, pay attention to the pitch counts. I have noticed over the years that once a guy hits 100 pitches in a game typically his effectiveness begins to decrease quite a bit. There are exceptions of course, but typically their velocity drops and the movement on their breaking stuff decreases and they start to get hit a lot harder.

[beuycek]

Jan 8, 2015 8:44:45 GMT -5 canefan said:

If you watch a lot of baseball this year, pay attention to the pitch counts. I have noticed over the years that once a guy hits 100 pitches in a game typically his effectiveness begins to decrease quite a bit. There are exceptions of course, but typically their velocity drops and the movement on their breaking stuff decreases and they start to get hit a lot harder.

Could it be because they have only trained their arms to throw that many pitches, thus they tire out? That seems to support my theory.

I won't disagree on the velocity part, though. There are more guy throwing in the mid to upper 90s but reardless of velocity, 99mph fastballs still put a lot less stress on an arm than 85mph sliders and curveballs.

[beuycek]

Another interesting note regarding Randy Johnson... he was chosen by the Atlanta Braves in the 4th round of the 1982 MLB Draft. The Braves also selected a SS in that draft in the 13th round out of Ashtabula, OH. A kid by the name of Urban Meyer.

[Walter]

Jan 8, 2015 10:18:14 GMT -5 beuycek said:

Another interesting note regarding Randy Johnson... he was chosen by the Atlanta Braves in the 4th round of the 1982 MLB Draft. The Braves also selected a SS in that draft in the 13th round out of Ashtabula, OH. A kid by the name of Urban Meyer.

Couldn't hit the curveball?

That was my downfall as well....along with not being able to hit the fastball either, no arm and poor fielding ability. Thing was, I really loved playing baseball.

I always thought it was east coast bias kept me out of the bigs.