some usc documents revealed

[oujour76]

Mar 25, 2015 11:45:50 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:52:05 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

That isn't at all what he said.

no but i inferred that he was justifying the way the ncaa acted.  perhaps i was a bit premature in doing so.  

Got it. And, just fwiw...I'm thinking that you're not the most unbiased person in the room when it comes to discussing the NCAA. Just sayin....

[mscott59]

Mar 25, 2015 11:45:50 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 25, 2015 10:52:05 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

That isn't at all what he said.

no but i inferred that he was justifying the way the ncaa acted.  perhaps i was a bit premature in doing so.  

thanks ihs for that definitive retraction. lol

[snap infraction]

Mar 25, 2015 11:52:50 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Mar 25, 2015 11:45:50 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

no but i inferred that he was justifying the way the ncaa acted.  perhaps i was a bit premature in doing so.  

Got it. And, just fwiw...I'm thinking that you're not the most unbiased person in the room when it comes to discussing the NCAA. Just sayin....

i'm bias?  just b/c i think the ncaa is an archaic, misguided, exploitative, self righteous power mongering organization that makes shit up to in order to protect their self appointed status as guardians of amateur athletics? 

[snap infraction]

Mar 25, 2015 12:18:05 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Mar 25, 2015 11:45:50 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

no but i inferred that he was justifying the way the ncaa acted.  perhaps i was a bit premature in doing so.  

thanks ihs for that definitive retraction. lol

i learned how to acknowledge wrongdoing without actually acknowledging wrong doing by watching mark emmert press conferences.  

[oujour76]

Mar 25, 2015 13:38:54 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 25, 2015 11:52:50 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Got it. And, just fwiw...I'm thinking that you're not the most unbiased person in the room when it comes to discussing the NCAA. Just sayin....

i'm bias?  just b/c i think the ncaa is an archaic, misguided, exploitative, self righteous power mongering organization that makes shit up to in order to protect their self appointed status as guardians of amateur athletics? 

Yes.

[mscott59]

Mar 25, 2015 13:38:54 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 25, 2015 11:52:50 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Got it. And, just fwiw...I'm thinking that you're not the most unbiased person in the room when it comes to discussing the NCAA. Just sayin....

i'm bias?  just b/c i think the ncaa is an archaic, misguided, exploitative, self righteous power mongering organization that makes shit up to in order to protect their self appointed status as guardians of amateur athletics? 

so, i'll ask again. as bad and inconsistent as the ncaa is, what would you replace it with? or would you simply disband it and let all the schools 'really' govern themselves?

[snap infraction]

Mar 25, 2015 14:06:55 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Mar 25, 2015 13:38:54 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i'm bias?  just b/c i think the ncaa is an archaic, misguided, exploitative, self righteous power mongering organization that makes shit up to in order to protect their self appointed status as guardians of amateur athletics? 

Yes.

haha i should have put something to indicate that i was being sarcastic.  yes i hate the ncaa so of course i'm  bias.  

[snap infraction]

Mar 25, 2015 14:19:05 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Mar 25, 2015 13:38:54 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i'm bias?  just b/c i think the ncaa is an archaic, misguided, exploitative, self righteous power mongering organization that makes shit up to in order to protect their self appointed status as guardians of amateur athletics? 

so, i'll ask again. as bad and inconsistent as the ncaa is, what would you replace it with? or would you simply disband it and let all the schools 'really' govern themselves?

tough to answer this.  i don't have the answers.  the ncaa doesn't necessarily need to disband...but it could def under massive transformation...here's what i'd do....and lets ignore title ix stuff for now b/c that complicates things. 

it's time to acknowledge that there are two types of athletes who play college sports....those with ambition to play sports at a higher level  and those without a professional sports future.  however, under the current system, both types get paid the same (free education) no matter their worth in the open market. 

the ncaa works for  student athletes with no professional sports future which is probably 95% or more of student athletes.  the market (free education) pays them more than their worth in the market.   

it doesn't work for those who are compensated below their market value.  for student athletes of revenue generating sports...pay them above a free education.  but everyone gets paid the same.  cap the amount they receive at some % of the revenue brought in by the conference...similar to the salary cap in the nfl.  except...they can't touch this money until the graduate or leave school.  it can go into some sort of trust.  this money is forfeited due to any academic violation or some sort of other conviction.  all the forfeited goes into a general student athlete fund.  

also...allow a player to capitalize financially on their likeness.  allow a player to sell their autograph or make some sort of personal appearance.  but cap the amount they can get paid for this.  and put this in the same trust.  the cap will keep the creepy boosters from giving 17 year olds millions of dollars.  

ideally i would love every human to get paid their market value.  but it's not feasible.  we have minimum wage in the real world.  minimum wage in college sports could be the free scholarship.  other sports like the nfl and the nba have salary caps.  so we introduce a salary cap into college sports.  

also the collusion between the nfl/nba and college sports needs to end right now.  let a 17 year jump to the nba and play in the d-league.  let a 17 year old play on an nfl scout team.  it's criminal that these organizations collude to keep profits higher at a 17 year olds expense.  this would allow anyone at any age the opportunity to get paid what their worth.  

as for enforcement against violations?  the ncaa needs to outsource this function to actual competent people.  there's too much of a conflict of interest with the ncaa's own personnel trying to keep their organization relevant publicly.  plus, it's obvious that those investigating are not as intelligent as the people they are investigating.  

[oujour76]

Mar 25, 2015 14:26:00 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 25, 2015 14:06:55 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Yes.

haha i should have put something to indicate that i was being sarcastic.  yes i hate the ncaa so of course i'm  bias.  

I knew.

[mscott59]

Mar 25, 2015 15:05:23 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 25, 2015 14:19:05 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

so, i'll ask again. as bad and inconsistent as the ncaa is, what would you replace it with? or would you simply disband it and let all the schools 'really' govern themselves?

tough to answer this.  i don't have the answers.  the ncaa doesn't necessarily need to disband...but it could def under massive transformation...here's what i'd do....and lets ignore title ix stuff for now b/c that complicates things. 

it's time to acknowledge that there are two types of athletes who play college sports....those with ambition to play sports at a higher level  and those without a professional sports future.  however, under the current system, both types get paid the same (free education) no matter their worth in the open market. 

the ncaa works for  student athletes with no professional sports future which is probably 95% or more of student athletes.  the market (free education) pays them more than their worth in the market.   

it doesn't work for those who are compensated below their market value.  for student athletes of revenue generating sports...pay them above a free education.  but everyone gets paid the same.  cap the amount they receive at some % of the revenue brought in by the conference...similar to the salary cap in the nfl.  except...they can't touch this money until the graduate or leave school.  it can go into some sort of trust.  this money is forfeited due to any academic violation or some sort of other conviction.  all the forfeited goes into a general student athlete fund.  

also...allow a player to capitalize financially on their likeness.  allow a player to sell their autograph or make some sort of personal appearance.  but cap the amount they can get paid for this.  and put this in the same trust.  the cap will keep the creepy boosters from giving 17 year olds millions of dollars.  

ideally i would love every human to get paid their market value.  but it's not feasible.  we have minimum wage in the real world.  minimum wage in college sports could be the free scholarship.  other sports like the nfl and the nba have salary caps.  so we introduce a salary cap into college sports.  

also the collusion between the nfl/nba and college sports needs to end right now.  let a 17 year jump to the nba and play in the d-league.  let a 17 year old play on an nfl scout team.  it's criminal that these organizations collude to keep profits higher at a 17 year olds expense.  this would allow anyone at any age the opportunity to get paid what their worth.  

as for enforcement against violations?  the ncaa needs to outsource this function to actual competent people.  there's too much of a conflict of interest with the ncaa's own personnel trying to keep their organization relevant publicly.  plus, it's obvious that those investigating are not as intelligent as the people they are investigating.  

everything you write after your first sentence actually makes some sense. but the words 'title ix' in your first sentence make everything behind it virtually impossible i think.

[oujour76]

Mar 25, 2015 16:10:22 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

everything you write after your first sentence actually makes some sense. but the words 'title ix' in your first sentence make everything behind it virtually impossible i think.
[/quote]

Damn Democrats.

[snap infraction]

Mar 25, 2015 16:10:22 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Mar 25, 2015 15:05:23 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

tough to answer this.  i don't have the answers.  the ncaa doesn't necessarily need to disband...but it could def under massive transformation...here's what i'd do....and lets ignore title ix stuff for now b/c that complicates things. 

it's time to acknowledge that there are two types of athletes who play college sports....those with ambition to play sports at a higher level  and those without a professional sports future.  however, under the current system, both types get paid the same (free education) no matter their worth in the open market. 

the ncaa works for  student athletes with no professional sports future which is probably 95% or more of student athletes.  the market (free education) pays them more than their worth in the market.   

it doesn't work for those who are compensated below their market value.  for student athletes of revenue generating sports...pay them above a free education.  but everyone gets paid the same.  cap the amount they receive at some % of the revenue brought in by the conference...similar to the salary cap in the nfl.  except...they can't touch this money until the graduate or leave school.  it can go into some sort of trust.  this money is forfeited due to any academic violation or some sort of other conviction.  all the forfeited goes into a general student athlete fund.  

also...allow a player to capitalize financially on their likeness.  allow a player to sell their autograph or make some sort of personal appearance.  but cap the amount they can get paid for this.  and put this in the same trust.  the cap will keep the creepy boosters from giving 17 year olds millions of dollars.  

ideally i would love every human to get paid their market value.  but it's not feasible.  we have minimum wage in the real world.  minimum wage in college sports could be the free scholarship.  other sports like the nfl and the nba have salary caps.  so we introduce a salary cap into college sports.  

also the collusion between the nfl/nba and college sports needs to end right now.  let a 17 year jump to the nba and play in the d-league.  let a 17 year old play on an nfl scout team.  it's criminal that these organizations collude to keep profits higher at a 17 year olds expense.  this would allow anyone at any age the opportunity to get paid what their worth.  

as for enforcement against violations?  the ncaa needs to outsource this function to actual competent people.  there's too much of a conflict of interest with the ncaa's own personnel trying to keep their organization relevant publicly.  plus, it's obvious that those investigating are not as intelligent as the people they are investigating.  

everything you write after your first sentence actually makes some sense. but the words 'title ix' in your first sentence make everything behind it virtually impossible i think.

i don't know if virtually impossible is accurate.  the collusion between the nfl/nba and the ncaa is not a title ix issue.  i get the nba/nfl gets a free development system and the ncaa creates stars which builds excitement in the draft.  and i get the ncaa gets a better product to sell to advertisers.  but the whole thing seems unfair to the athlete.  i honestly don't know how draft restriction is legal.  it just seems criminal to deny someone the ability to play professional if they have the ability to do so. 

as for the other title ix stuff...it's a complicated law that i don't understand.  but if the ncaa passes a rule that says "all student athletes from revenue generating sports are to receive x percentange amount of the total tv, licensing and ticket sales revenue generated" wouldn't that be in compliance with title ix?  especially if that percentage was equal among all revenue generating sports?  if women's basketball generated $100,000 in revenue and men's basketball generated $1,000,000 but the % the athlete received back are the same, isn't that equality?  

[oujour76]

Mar 26, 2015 7:42:55 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i don't know if virtually impossible is accurate.  the collusion between the nfl/nba and the ncaa is not a title ix issue.  i get the nba/nfl gets a free development system and the ncaa creates stars which builds excitement in the draft.  and i get the ncaa gets a better product to sell to advertisers.  but the whole thing seems unfair to the athlete.  i honestly don't know how draft restriction is legal.  it just seems criminal to deny someone the ability to play professional if they have the ability to do so. 

as for the other title ix stuff...it's a complicated law that i don't understand.  but if the ncaa passes a rule that says "all student athletes from revenue generating sports are to receive x percentange amount of the total tv, licensing and ticket sales revenue generated" wouldn't that be in compliance with title ix?  especially if that percentage was equal among all revenue generating sports?  if women's basketball generated $100,000 in revenue and men's basketball generated $1,000,000 but the % the athlete received back are the same, isn't that equality?  [/quote]

Yes, in a flat tax kind of way, it's equal. But, no way would it fly under Title IX. IMO, if scholarship athletes were paid a stipend, all have to get the same amount. Now, I would think that the part about profiting off of your own image is a different thing...that is market driven and each athlete theoretically has the same opportunity.

[snap infraction]

Mar 26, 2015 8:50:59 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Mar 26, 2015 7:42:55 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i don't know if virtually impossible is accurate.  the collusion between the nfl/nba and the ncaa is not a title ix issue.  i get the nba/nfl gets a free development system and the ncaa creates stars which builds excitement in the draft.  and i get the ncaa gets a better product to sell to advertisers.  but the whole thing seems unfair to the athlete.  i honestly don't know how draft restriction is legal.  it just seems criminal to deny someone the ability to play professional if they have the ability to do so. 

as for the other title ix stuff...it's a complicated law that i don't understand.  but if the ncaa passes a rule that says "all student athletes from revenue generating sports are to receive x percentange amount of the total tv, licensing and ticket sales revenue generated" wouldn't that be in compliance with title ix?  especially if that percentage was equal among all revenue generating sports?  if women's basketball generated $100,000 in revenue and men's basketball generated $1,000,000 but the % the athlete received back are the same, isn't that equality?  

Yes, in a flat tax kind of way, it's equal. But, no way would it fly under Title IX. IMO, if scholarship athletes were paid a stipend, all have to get the same amount. Now, I would think that the part about profiting off of your own image is a different thing...that is market driven and each athlete theoretically has the same opportunity. [/quote]

i agree that stipends would have to be equal.  but that's not what i suggested.  a stipend is given out to cover basic living expenses. a salary is money for actual work performed. i'm suggesting a salary for athletes who play revenue generating sports.  The % of the revenue is the same, not at actual amount of salary itself.   

[mscott59]

Mar 26, 2015 10:13:46 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Mar 26, 2015 8:50:59 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

i don't know if virtually impossible is accurate.  the collusion between the nfl/nba and the ncaa is not a title ix issue.  i get the nba/nfl gets a free development system and the ncaa creates stars which builds excitement in the draft.  and i get the ncaa gets a better product to sell to advertisers.  but the whole thing seems unfair to the athlete.  i honestly don't know how draft restriction is legal.  it just seems criminal to deny someone the ability to play professional if they have the ability to do so. 

as for the other title ix stuff...it's a complicated law that i don't understand.  but if the ncaa passes a rule that says "all student athletes from revenue generating sports are to receive x percentange amount of the total tv, licensing and ticket sales revenue generated" wouldn't that be in compliance with title ix?  especially if that percentage was equal among all revenue generating sports?  if women's basketball generated $100,000 in revenue and men's basketball generated $1,000,000 but the % the athlete received back are the same, isn't that equality?  

Yes, in a flat tax kind of way, it's equal. But, no way would it fly under Title IX. IMO, if scholarship athletes were paid a stipend, all have to get the same amount. Now, I would think that the part about profiting off of your own image is a different thing...that is market driven and each athlete theoretically has the same opportunity.

i agree that stipends would have to be equal.  but that's not what i suggested.  a stipend is given out to cover basic living expenses. a salary is money for actual work performed. i'm suggesting a salary for athletes who play revenue generating sports.  The % of the revenue is the same, not at actual amount of salary itself.   [/quote]

then you can count on more schools dropping more, maybe all, non-revenue/olympic sports. tosu has 36 varsity sports, tied w/stanford i believe for the largest in the country. football supports 35 of them (men's b-ball is self-sufficient). the most successful programs will find a way to make it work. the majority, though, won't. remember that link earlier this week, showing how many of the college athletic programs are making money or at least breaking even? and how many subsidize athletics w/funds from other parts of their budget? what do you think adding the element of paying players will do to that? imho they're going to be a lot less d-1 football programs around for the big boys to play. as well as less opportunities for non-football student athletes.

you could always raise ticket prices, booster fees (that happened here at osu this past year), broadcast/cable rights (which in turn would meaning consumers/fans paying higher cable bills). most cfb programs are already struggling w/declining attendance. again, my view is that paying football players will not help turn that around.

i said earlier that your raise some good ideas... but that's under the umbrella of cfb dropping the veneer completely of being college sports and becoming nfl-lite. maybe you're right... maybe it's finally time for that. but it will come with a cost. one that will affect universities and students. as a member of the buckeye club, i like the fact that i get to talk/meet kids at osu who wrestle, or swim, or fence, or run, or high jump, play lacrosse, soccer, field hockey, ice hockey, etc. the discipline it takes for them to go to school and still practice a sport, knowing there's no professional future in it, is laudable. i know when i see resumes that notate someone being a varsity athlete in a non-revenue sport, it's been my experience that they're going to be better hires in business. i love the fact that osu, and many schools, provides those types of opportunities for kids to go to college.

i think formally professionalizing cfb will have a significant impact on those kids who don't play football. that worries me a lot. i could live with a stipend in addition to the scholarship. i'm not in favor of any other changes because i want kids who play football to be college kids. them not having an opportunity to turn professional earlier is NOT cfb's, or the ncaa's, call. that's the nfl making its own rule. so goodell should be the one answering that question, about denying anyone an opportunity to prove their worth on the field.