chase utleys slide??

[canefan]

I too liked the Dodgers growing up. Got over it. There is good hard baseball and then there is dirty baseball. You need to at least look like you are trying to go to the bag and he didn't even begin the slide until he was so far along he would have finished up well past the bag if he hadn't hit his target. Nope, I like good, hard baseball but not dirty baseball, and that is what that slide was.

[Walter]

Oct 14, 2015 15:00:38 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Oct 14, 2015 13:20:27 GMT -5 Walter said:

As apparently the lone Dodger fan here, I looked at the play as just big boy baseball. Utley's job is to bust up the double play in a way that isn't illegal, or more precisely, isn't RULED illegal. That is what he did. That someone got hurt is unfortunate, but had nobody gotten hurt, this would be a non-issue, and had Utley been a Met and the rolls reversed, the Met media would have been all over him for NOT taking out the Dodger SS.

All these comments here about who should do what in retaliation is precisely what happens in baseball every day. This is major league baseball. No participation trophies.

FTR, you aren't the only Dodger fan here. Been following them since 1963. My favorite player growing up was "the Jewish kid" as Casey Stengel used to refer to Sandy Koufax.

Am I wrong, or is that fat, slow, curveball Kershaw throws look just like Koufax's noon to 6 overhand curve? Kershaw's, IMO, is as close to Koufax's as anyone I've seen in 40 years, and I have to assume that Koufax did some tutoring in that regard. I always thought that when Koufax perfected that curveball, and then that quasi-forkball changeup, THAT was when he became an unhittable HOFr..

[canefan]

Oct 14, 2015 17:48:33 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 14, 2015 15:00:38 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

FTR, you aren't the only Dodger fan here. Been following them since 1963. My favorite player growing up was "the Jewish kid" as Casey Stengel used to refer to Sandy Koufax.

Am I wrong, or is that fat, slow, curveball Kershaw throws look just like Koufax's noon to 6 overhand curve? Kershaw's, IMO, is as close to Koufax's as anyone I've seen in 40 years, and I have to assume that Koufax did some tutoring in that regard. I always thought that when Koufax perfected that curveball, and then that quasi-forkball changeup, THAT was when he became an unhittable HOFr..

I was the weird kid growing up. Like Koufax and that curveball was amazing but I was a Drysdale guy. I tried to emulate him with that big side winding delivery. Trouble was, I couldn't throw 90 mph like he could.

[oujour76]

Oct 14, 2015 17:48:33 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 14, 2015 15:00:38 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

FTR, you aren't the only Dodger fan here. Been following them since 1963. My favorite player growing up was "the Jewish kid" as Casey Stengel used to refer to Sandy Koufax.

Am I wrong, or is that fat, slow, curveball Kershaw throws look just like Koufax's noon to 6 overhand curve? Kershaw's, IMO, is as close to Koufax's as anyone I've seen in 40 years, and I have to assume that Koufax did some tutoring in that regard. I always thought that when Koufax perfected that curveball, and then that quasi-forkball changeup, THAT was when he became an unhittable HOFr..

I don't remember Koufax throwing the slow curve all that much...as for him becoming a pitcher, I think it was when he finally got some control in 1961 or 1962.

[oujour76]

Oct 14, 2015 17:48:33 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 14, 2015 15:00:38 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

FTR, you aren't the only Dodger fan here. Been following them since 1963. My favorite player growing up was "the Jewish kid" as Casey Stengel used to refer to Sandy Koufax.

Am I wrong, or is that fat, slow, curveball Kershaw throws look just like Koufax's noon to 6 overhand curve? Kershaw's, IMO, is as close to Koufax's as anyone I've seen in 40 years, and I have to assume that Koufax did some tutoring in that regard. I always thought that when Koufax perfected that curveball, and then that quasi-forkball changeup, THAT was when he became an unhittable HOFr..

Double checked on Koufax's BB stats and he started to get things together in 1961. Prior to that year, he averaged about 5.3 walks per 9 innings. In '61 and '62 he got it down to 3.3. From '63 thru '66 it was about 2.

He never played in the minors to learn how to pitch. As a "bonus baby" the Dodgers couldn't send him down to the minors for 2 years...if they did, another team could claim him. So, he was left on the major league roster, and in his first 2 seasons he only pitched a total of about 100 innings. It took him another 3-4 years after that to come into his own.

[Buckeye Dale]

Oct 14, 2015 15:00:38 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Oct 14, 2015 13:20:27 GMT -5 Walter said:

As apparently the lone Dodger fan here, I looked at the play as just big boy baseball. Utley's job is to bust up the double play in a way that isn't illegal, or more precisely, isn't RULED illegal. That is what he did. That someone got hurt is unfortunate, but had nobody gotten hurt, this would be a non-issue, and had Utley been a Met and the rolls reversed, the Met media would have been all over him for NOT taking out the Dodger SS.

All these comments here about who should do what in retaliation is precisely what happens in baseball every day. This is major league baseball. No participation trophies.

FTR, you aren't the only Dodger fan here. Been following them since 1963. My favorite player growing up was "the Jewish kid" as Casey Stengel used to refer to Sandy Koufax.

As a Little League & Pony League pitcher, I liked Koufax...as an Indians & Tigers fan (& Yankee hater), I LOVED Koufax when he beat the Yanks in the series...(62/3/4?)

[oujour76]

Oct 14, 2015 20:17:19 GMT -5 Buckeye Dale said:

Oct 14, 2015 15:00:38 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

FTR, you aren't the only Dodger fan here. Been following them since 1963. My favorite player growing up was "the Jewish kid" as Casey Stengel used to refer to Sandy Koufax.

As a Little League & Pony League pitcher, I liked Koufax...as an Indians & Tigers fan (& Yankee hater), I LOVED Koufax when he beat the Yanks in the series...(62/3/4?)

1963...4-game sweep by the Dodgers.

[canefan]

Good video of Koufax delivery. The huge leg stride and how low he gets, just amazing. Best curve and best fastball in either league when he was dominating.If you are interested, this link Curveball Scinece, discusses his maturation and mechanics. They think it was his long stride and rotation that caused him to take so long to master his delivery.

[canefan]

From the Koufax story, a great story on his curveball.


2. A Koufax story I read a few years back, either in Leary’s bio of him or perhaps an Angell piece. Koufax, retired almost 20 years and in his 40s, was pitching batting practice to the Dodgers (whom he often helped coach) between post-season series in the mid-1980s. This was the great-hitting Dodger line-up with Sax, Garvey, Baker, Cey, and others. Koufax is just throwing easy minor-league 45-year-old man fastballs for BP, letting the hitters groove their swings. One of the hitters calls for the famous curveball. This Koufax usually didn’t throw, lest it aggravate his elbow. But this hitter wanted to see the thing, see if he could hit it, so Koufax indulges him.

This is a major league hitter who knows what pitch is coming, batting against a man in his mid-40s.

Curve comes in, drops like a stone — a swing and a miss.

Hitter calls for another. Same result.

Several more; the same.

By now the hitter’s teammates, watching, are in hysterics. They’re howling. The batter gives up, walks off, tells his buddies, Fine then, you try it. And one by one they do. This great Dodger line-up comes up, every hitter knowing what pitch he’s getting, and no one can connect. Koufax is 45 or so — and with one pitch, pre-announced, he is unhittable.

No wonder Mantle said what he said. ("How the f-word are you suppose to hit that?")

[Buckeye Dale]

Oct 15, 2015 7:18:02 GMT -5 canefan said:

From the Koufax story, a great story on his curveball.


2. A Koufax story I read a few years back, either in Leary’s bio of him or perhaps an Angell piece. Koufax, retired almost 20 years and in his 40s, was pitching batting practice to the Dodgers (whom he often helped coach) between post-season series in the mid-1980s. This was the great-hitting Dodger line-up with Sax, Garvey, Baker, Cey, and others. Koufax is just throwing easy minor-league 45-year-old man fastballs for BP, letting the hitters groove their swings. One of the hitters calls for the famous curveball. This Koufax usually didn’t throw, lest it aggravate his elbow. But this hitter wanted to see the thing, see if he could hit it, so Koufax indulges him.

This is a major league hitter who knows what pitch is coming, batting against a man in his mid-40s.

Curve comes in, drops like a stone — a swing and a miss.

Hitter calls for another. Same result.

Several more; the same.

By now the hitter’s teammates, watching, are in hysterics. They’re howling. The batter gives up, walks off, tells his buddies, Fine then, you try it. And one by one they do. This great Dodger line-up comes up, every hitter knowing what pitch he’s getting, and no one can connect. Koufax is 45 or so — and with one pitch, pre-announced, he is unhittable.

No wonder Mantle said what he said. ("How the f-word are you suppose to hit that?")

Uhhhh...be a good guesser? 

[mscott59]

Oct 15, 2015 7:18:02 GMT -5 canefan said:

From the Koufax story, a great story on his curveball.


2. A Koufax story I read a few years back, either in Leary’s bio of him or perhaps an Angell piece. Koufax, retired almost 20 years and in his 40s, was pitching batting practice to the Dodgers (whom he often helped coach) between post-season series in the mid-1980s. This was the great-hitting Dodger line-up with Sax, Garvey, Baker, Cey, and others. Koufax is just throwing easy minor-league 45-year-old man fastballs for BP, letting the hitters groove their swings. One of the hitters calls for the famous curveball. This Koufax usually didn’t throw, lest it aggravate his elbow. But this hitter wanted to see the thing, see if he could hit it, so Koufax indulges him.

This is a major league hitter who knows what pitch is coming, batting against a man in his mid-40s.

Curve comes in, drops like a stone — a swing and a miss.

Hitter calls for another. Same result.

Several more; the same.

By now the hitter’s teammates, watching, are in hysterics. They’re howling. The batter gives up, walks off, tells his buddies, Fine then, you try it. And one by one they do. This great Dodger line-up comes up, every hitter knowing what pitch he’s getting, and no one can connect. Koufax is 45 or so — and with one pitch, pre-announced, he is unhittable.

No wonder Mantle said what he said. ("How the f-word are you suppose to hit that?")

nice. i read where he actually was pitching in the majors at 19 in brooklyn. he retired so young, at the top of his game. he and jim brown, right within a year of each other, both their sport's most dominant players at their position, leaving before they'd turned 31. don't see that very often.

[Walter]

Oct 14, 2015 20:16:02 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Oct 14, 2015 17:48:33 GMT -5 Walter said:

Am I wrong, or is that fat, slow, curveball Kershaw throws look just like Koufax's noon to 6 overhand curve? Kershaw's, IMO, is as close to Koufax's as anyone I've seen in 40 years, and I have to assume that Koufax did some tutoring in that regard. I always thought that when Koufax perfected that curveball, and then that quasi-forkball changeup, THAT was when he became an unhittable HOFr..

Double checked on Koufax's BB stats and he started to get things together in 1961. Prior to that year, he averaged about 5.3 walks per 9 innings. In '61 and '62 he got it down to 3.3. From '63 thru '66 it was about 2.

He never played in the minors to learn how to pitch. As a "bonus baby" the Dodgers couldn't send him down to the minors for 2 years...if they did, another team could claim him. So, he was left on the major league roster, and in his first 2 seasons he only pitched a total of about 100 innings. It took him another 3-4 years after that to come into his own.

IIRC, do you know who was sent down to the minors to make space for that bonus baby on the big club?
A left hander by the name of Lasorda.

[oujour76]

Oct 15, 2015 10:32:40 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 14, 2015 20:16:02 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Double checked on Koufax's BB stats and he started to get things together in 1961. Prior to that year, he averaged about 5.3 walks per 9 innings. In '61 and '62 he got it down to 3.3. From '63 thru '66 it was about 2.

He never played in the minors to learn how to pitch. As a "bonus baby" the Dodgers couldn't send him down to the minors for 2 years...if they did, another team could claim him. So, he was left on the major league roster, and in his first 2 seasons he only pitched a total of about 100 innings. It took him another 3-4 years after that to come into his own.

IIRC, do you know who was sent down to the minors to make space for that bonus baby on the big club?
A left hander by the name of Lasorda.

I'm thinking they made the right choice.

[canefan]

Oct 15, 2015 8:13:35 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Oct 15, 2015 7:18:02 GMT -5 canefan said:

From the Koufax story, a great story on his curveball.


2. A Koufax story I read a few years back, either in Leary’s bio of him or perhaps an Angell piece. Koufax, retired almost 20 years and in his 40s, was pitching batting practice to the Dodgers (whom he often helped coach) between post-season series in the mid-1980s. This was the great-hitting Dodger line-up with Sax, Garvey, Baker, Cey, and others. Koufax is just throwing easy minor-league 45-year-old man fastballs for BP, letting the hitters groove their swings. One of the hitters calls for the famous curveball. This Koufax usually didn’t throw, lest it aggravate his elbow. But this hitter wanted to see the thing, see if he could hit it, so Koufax indulges him.

This is a major league hitter who knows what pitch is coming, batting against a man in his mid-40s.

Curve comes in, drops like a stone — a swing and a miss.

Hitter calls for another. Same result.

Several more; the same.

By now the hitter’s teammates, watching, are in hysterics. They’re howling. The batter gives up, walks off, tells his buddies, Fine then, you try it. And one by one they do. This great Dodger line-up comes up, every hitter knowing what pitch he’s getting, and no one can connect. Koufax is 45 or so — and with one pitch, pre-announced, he is unhittable.

No wonder Mantle said what he said. ("How the f-word are you suppose to hit that?")

nice. i read where he actually was pitching in the majors at 19 in brooklyn. he retired so young, at the top of his game. he and jim brown, right within a year of each other, both their sport's most dominant players at their position, leaving before they'd turned 31. don't see that very often.

I remember when he retired. It shocked everyone, but I guess the arthritis in his elbow was already so bad that the pain was more than he could put up with. You can see from the video's how hard he threw and then the contortion he put on his entire body with that curve. He was amazing to watch and I knew nothing about pitching when watching him as a kid. Today he would have a clean out of the elbow, maybe a Tommy John surgery or two and pitch to his late thirties.

[canefan]

Oct 15, 2015 7:59:15 GMT -5 Buckeye Dale said:

Oct 15, 2015 7:18:02 GMT -5 canefan said:

From the Koufax story, a great story on his curveball.


2. A Koufax story I read a few years back, either in Leary’s bio of him or perhaps an Angell piece. Koufax, retired almost 20 years and in his 40s, was pitching batting practice to the Dodgers (whom he often helped coach) between post-season series in the mid-1980s. This was the great-hitting Dodger line-up with Sax, Garvey, Baker, Cey, and others. Koufax is just throwing easy minor-league 45-year-old man fastballs for BP, letting the hitters groove their swings. One of the hitters calls for the famous curveball. This Koufax usually didn’t throw, lest it aggravate his elbow. But this hitter wanted to see the thing, see if he could hit it, so Koufax indulges him.

This is a major league hitter who knows what pitch is coming, batting against a man in his mid-40s.

Curve comes in, drops like a stone — a swing and a miss.

Hitter calls for another. Same result.

Several more; the same.

By now the hitter’s teammates, watching, are in hysterics. They’re howling. The batter gives up, walks off, tells his buddies, Fine then, you try it. And one by one they do. This great Dodger line-up comes up, every hitter knowing what pitch he’s getting, and no one can connect. Koufax is 45 or so — and with one pitch, pre-announced, he is unhittable.

No wonder Mantle said what he said. ("How the f-word are you suppose to hit that?")

Uhhhh...be a good guesser? 

I use to know Paul Schaal fairly well, former Royals 3B prior to Brett. I asked him once how he ever hit off of a Nolan Ryan throwing that hard. He said honestly you just started your swing about the time the ball leaves his hand and you swing to a zone, up and in, low and away, etc., and hope he hits your bat.