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Post by mscott59 on Nov 10, 2015 9:36:55 GMT -5
for tribe fans... michael brantley may not be in the starting line up when the indians open the '16 season. he underwent surgery on his right shoulder to repair a labrum tear. he hurt it trying to make a diving catch in late sept. he'll need to shut down activity involving the shoulder for 5-6 months.
for reds fans... ken griffey jr is among 15 new players on this year's baseball hof ballot. 630 hr's, 6th all time, 13 all-star games, 10 gold gloves, al mvp in '97. does he get in on the first year? i think that's a no-brainer. voting results will come out in early january.
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Post by beuycek on Nov 10, 2015 11:02:54 GMT -5
for tribe fans... michael brantley may not be in the starting line up when the indians open the '16 season. he underwent surgery on his right shoulder to repair a labrum tear. he hurt it trying to make a diving catch in late sept. he'll need to shut down activity involving the shoulder for 5-6 months. for reds fans... ken griffey jr is among 15 new players on this year's baseball hof ballot. 630 hr's, 6th all time, 13 all-star games, 10 gold gloves, al mvp in '97. does he get in on the first year? i think that's a no-brainer. voting results will come out in early january. If Griffey doesn't get in on the first ballot, it would be a crime. When healthy, he was the best in the game yet even with all of the injuries, his numbers are outstanding. I agree, this one is a no brainer. I think Piazza gets in this year, too. Or least he should but with the voters these days, you just never know. |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on Nov 10, 2015 14:15:06 GMT -5
for tribe fans... michael brantley may not be in the starting line up when the indians open the '16 season. he underwent surgery on his right shoulder to repair a labrum tear. he hurt it trying to make a diving catch in late sept. he'll need to shut down activity involving the shoulder for 5-6 months. for reds fans... ken griffey jr is among 15 new players on this year's baseball hof ballot. 630 hr's, 6th all time, 13 all-star games, 10 gold gloves, al mvp in '97. does he get in on the first year? i think that's a no-brainer. voting results will come out in early january. Speaking of HOF... Once again, a group of fans (obviously older) are trying to petition the Veterans' Committee to nominate/induct Rocky Colavito. Since it's been brought up (HOF), I thought I'd do a quick, unscientific survey here and see how many, if any, fans here remember the Rock... |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 10, 2015 15:12:28 GMT -5
for tribe fans... michael brantley may not be in the starting line up when the indians open the '16 season. he underwent surgery on his right shoulder to repair a labrum tear. he hurt it trying to make a diving catch in late sept. he'll need to shut down activity involving the shoulder for 5-6 months. for reds fans... ken griffey jr is among 15 new players on this year's baseball hof ballot. 630 hr's, 6th all time, 13 all-star games, 10 gold gloves, al mvp in '97. does he get in on the first year? i think that's a no-brainer. voting results will come out in early january. Speaking of HOF... Once again, a group of fans (obviously older) are trying to petition the Veterans' Committee to nominate/induct Rocky Colavito. Since it's been brought up (HOF), I thought I'd do a quick, unscientific survey here and see how many, if any, fans here remember the Rock...
I remember him well...good ballplayer, but (and you knew I would say this) not HOF good. JMO. |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on Nov 10, 2015 15:19:30 GMT -5
Speaking of HOF... Once again, a group of fans (obviously older) are trying to petition the Veterans' Committee to nominate/induct Rocky Colavito. Since it's been brought up (HOF), I thought I'd do a quick, unscientific survey here and see how many, if any, fans here remember the Rock...
I remember him well...good ballplayer, but (and you knew I would say this) not HOF good. JMO. I can see and appreciate that opinion...UNTIL you look at him in the light of THAT day instead of this one. Compare his numbers to others of that era who ARE in the HOF already. Still not an overwhelming candidate, for sure. But IMO, he is just over the line. <shrug> I can remember hearing a couple people mention in conversation that they thought he already was in. |
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Post by beuycek on Nov 10, 2015 15:19:20 GMT -5
for tribe fans... michael brantley may not be in the starting line up when the indians open the '16 season. he underwent surgery on his right shoulder to repair a labrum tear. he hurt it trying to make a diving catch in late sept. he'll need to shut down activity involving the shoulder for 5-6 months. for reds fans... ken griffey jr is among 15 new players on this year's baseball hof ballot. 630 hr's, 6th all time, 13 all-star games, 10 gold gloves, al mvp in '97. does he get in on the first year? i think that's a no-brainer. voting results will come out in early january. Speaking of HOF... Once again, a group of fans (obviously older) are trying to petition the Veterans' Committee to nominate/induct Rocky Colavito. Since it's been brought up (HOF), I thought I'd do a quick, unscientific survey here and see how many, if any, fans here remember the Rock... Never saw him play but my Dad shared a lot of stories, many of Colavito. One, in particular, of him standing in the outfield by the fence some 400 feet away and throwing a dart right on the money to home plate. I guess he had a heck of an arm. |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on Nov 10, 2015 15:33:19 GMT -5
Speaking of HOF... Once again, a group of fans (obviously older) are trying to petition the Veterans' Committee to nominate/induct Rocky Colavito. Since it's been brought up (HOF), I thought I'd do a quick, unscientific survey here and see how many, if any, fans here remember the Rock... Never saw him play but my Dad shared a lot of stories, many of Colavito. One, in particular, of him standing in the outfield by the fence some 400 feet away and throwing a dart right on the money to home plate. I guess he had a heck of an arm. He closed out his career in Yankee pinstripes, and pitched part of a game in a double header, & picked up the win. |
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Post by mscott59 on Nov 10, 2015 15:38:36 GMT -5
I remember him well...good ballplayer, but (and you knew I would say this) not HOF good. JMO. I can see and appreciate that opinion...UNTIL you look at him in the light of THAT day instead of this one. Compare his numbers to others of that era who ARE in the HOF already. Still not an overwhelming candidate, for sure. But IMO, he is just over the line. <shrug> I can remember hearing a couple people mention in conversation that they thought he already was in. i would love it if he got in, for sure, especially since he's now in his 80s but could still be alive to savor the honor. and i agree with you about his numbers being, on the whole, above the contemporaries of his era. 6 100+ rbi seasons in an 8-9 year stretch (i think) w/the tribe and tigers would be amazing today, let alone 50-60 years ago. but he only batted .260 or so for his career. if i take off my cleveland glasses, he remains borderline. but i hope the veterans committee recognizes him. |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 10, 2015 15:42:23 GMT -5
I remember him well...good ballplayer, but (and you knew I would say this) not HOF good. JMO. I can see and appreciate that opinion...UNTIL you look at him in the light of THAT day instead of this one. Compare his numbers to others of that era who ARE in the HOF already. Still not an overwhelming candidate, for sure. But IMO, he is just over the line. <shrug> I can remember hearing a couple people mention in conversation that they thought he already was in.
I know Frank is a Buckeye and all, but would you consider him to be HOF material?
www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colavro01.shtml
www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/howarfr01.shtml |
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Post by mscott59 on Nov 10, 2015 16:20:46 GMT -5
I can see and appreciate that opinion...UNTIL you look at him in the light of THAT day instead of this one. Compare his numbers to others of that era who ARE in the HOF already. Still not an overwhelming candidate, for sure. But IMO, he is just over the line. <shrug> I can remember hearing a couple people mention in conversation that they thought he already was in.
I know Frank is a Buckeye and all, but would you consider him to be HOF material?
www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colavro01.shtml
www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/howarfr01.shtml frank wins my award for the most imposing figure as a base coach, 1st or 3rd, in mlb history. lol |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 10, 2015 16:28:01 GMT -5
frank wins my award for the most imposing figure as a base coach, 1st or 3rd, in mlb history. lol[/quote] That should be enough to get him into Cooperstown.  |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on Nov 10, 2015 17:06:58 GMT -5
I've been looking for a particular email...as I've told you before, I've been a HUGE Rocky fan since the 50s...he was my hero. Although I only get updates on occasion now, there is a rather large fan club that continues to write (pester?) the vet's committee. There are a number of other things besides just hitting for average, etc...Off the top of my head, some of the things I can recall were along the lines of him being one of (X number, not very many) to hit four HRs in a game (Baltimore, June 1959), having a 1.000 Fielding avg, during such & such time, being in the top 5 of MVP ballots, things like that. I couldn't find that particular write up, but did find this one... Hello Barry,
I think you have to look at just mere 'career totals' to get the whole picture. By your yardstick, Bill Mazeroski should never have been inducted. Look at Maz' career totals and you'll faint. He achieved the Hall through his defensive abilities.
I think it is as Rocky once said: a POPULARITY contest. And that means popular to SPORTSWRITERS. That seems to have been the real problem all along. Rocky's 'honesty' was a little too much for some arrogant, egotistical sports scribes of his era. They have not been too forgiving and likely have swayed there sensibilities.
You know, Barry, if you want another real laugh, take a look at HOFer Tony Perez's 'career' numbers:
Seasons At Bats HR AVG
Tony Perez 23 9,778 379 .279
Rocky Colavito 14 6,503 374 .266
The first thing that jumps out is it took Tony Perez 3,275 MORE at bats to hit just 5 (that's FIVE) more homers and in 9 MORE years! Career averages are about the same.
Word of note: I have compiled statistics from the very same (and my favorite) www.baseball-reference.com. So you should be very familiar with the site and easily be able to check for yourself the above statistics.
Now, let's REALLY have some fun and check on Baseball-References' very own major yardstick of performance: OPS. OPS = On Base Percentage + Slugging Average! I love this statistic because it gives a TRUE scope on player production. (did I say I LOVED www.baseball-reference.com?)
And here's the BIG number for them......
Tony Perez - .804 OPS
Rocky Colavito - .848 OPS
I think that speaks for itself. You know, I didn't scour the vast pages to find an 'argument' for Rocky. Actually, a few months ago, I was astounded to read that Tony Perez was a HOFer. I couldn't believe it and looked up his stats on MY favorite stats site: www.baseball-reference.com. I like Perez; always have. I just couldn't believe they inducted him.
As for the list that you posted from baseball-reference.com, I found it also. I believe this is just a computer-kicked out list that falls in the programmed parameters. Just a guideline; nothing more. For instance, here's the 10 that kicks out on Tony Perez:
Harold Baines
Dave Parker
Andre Dawson
Rusty Staub
Luis Gonzalaz
Billy Williams *
Dwight Evans
Al Kaline *
Chili Davis
Jim Rice *
* = denotes by regular eligibilty * = denotes by Veterans Committee
With that in mind, Kaline was the only 'contemporary' of Perez that was actually inducted in his regular stint of eligibility from the very same 'computer-kicked out' list from the very same source. Perhaps the HOF puts too much emphasis on World Series rings? Perez had a HUGE fellow casting of HOFers: Bench, Morgan shoulda been Rose.......Rocky did not! (except perhaps when he was a Tiger with Kaline, Cash & Horton; of which, only Kaline made the Hall)
But anyways, as I said, I was just running it out there to see other peoples' thoughts...you & I have had this discussion, at least partly, before now, and I knew how you felt. Then too, partly because, as Mark mentioned, the Rock is getting up there...lost part of his leg this past summer, and I think it would be kinda neat for him to make it before he dies. He is still a big favorite to Indians fans, if you check him out on YouTube, there are a few games where he was honored, to include being included in the Indians' HOF... |
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Post by mscott59 on Nov 10, 2015 17:46:50 GMT -5
I've been looking for a particular email...as I've told you before, I've been a HUGE Rocky fan since the 50s...he was my hero. Although I only get updates on occasion now, there is a rather large fan club that continues to write (pester?) the vet's committee. There are a number of other things besides just hitting for average, etc...Off the top of my head, some of the things I can recall were along the lines of him being one of (X number, not very many) to hit four HRs in a game (Baltimore, June 1959), having a 1.000 Fielding avg, during such & such time, being in the top 5 of MVP ballots, things like that. I couldn't find that particular write up, but did find this one... Hello Barry,
I think you have to look at just mere 'career totals' to get the whole picture. By your yardstick, Bill Mazeroski should never have been inducted. Look at Maz' career totals and you'll faint. He achieved the Hall through his defensive abilities.
I think it is as Rocky once said: a POPULARITY contest. And that means popular to SPORTSWRITERS. That seems to have been the real problem all along. Rocky's 'honesty' was a little too much for some arrogant, egotistical sports scribes of his era. They have not been too forgiving and likely have swayed there sensibilities.
You know, Barry, if you want another real laugh, take a look at HOFer Tony Perez's 'career' numbers:
Seasons At Bats HR AVG
Tony Perez 23 9,778 379 .279
Rocky Colavito 14 6,503 374 .266
The first thing that jumps out is it took Tony Perez 3,275 MORE at bats to hit just 5 (that's FIVE) more homers and in 9 MORE years! Career averages are about the same.
Word of note: I have compiled statistics from the very same (and my favorite) www.baseball-reference.com. So you should be very familiar with the site and easily be able to check for yourself the above statistics.
Now, let's REALLY have some fun and check on Baseball-References' very own major yardstick of performance: OPS. OPS = On Base Percentage + Slugging Average! I love this statistic because it gives a TRUE scope on player production. (did I say I LOVED www.baseball-reference.com?)
And here's the BIG number for them......
Tony Perez - .804 OPS
Rocky Colavito - .848 OPS
I think that speaks for itself. You know, I didn't scour the vast pages to find an 'argument' for Rocky. Actually, a few months ago, I was astounded to read that Tony Perez was a HOFer. I couldn't believe it and looked up his stats on MY favorite stats site: www.baseball-reference.com. I like Perez; always have. I just couldn't believe they inducted him.
As for the list that you posted from baseball-reference.com, I found it also. I believe this is just a computer-kicked out list that falls in the programmed parameters. Just a guideline; nothing more. For instance, here's the 10 that kicks out on Tony Perez:
Harold Baines
Dave Parker
Andre Dawson
Rusty Staub
Luis Gonzalaz
Billy Williams *
Dwight Evans
Al Kaline *
Chili Davis
Jim Rice *
* = denotes by regular eligibilty * = denotes by Veterans Committee
With that in mind, Kaline was the only 'contemporary' of Perez that was actually inducted in his regular stint of eligibility from the very same 'computer-kicked out' list from the very same source. Perhaps the HOF puts too much emphasis on World Series rings? Perez had a HUGE fellow casting of HOFers: Bench, Morgan shoulda been Rose.......Rocky did not! (except perhaps when he was a Tiger with Kaline, Cash & Horton; of which, only Kaline made the Hall)
But anyways, as I said, I was just running it out there to see other peoples' thoughts...you & I have had this discussion, at least partly, before now, and I knew how you felt. Then too, partly because, as Mark mentioned, the Rock is getting up there...lost part of his leg this past summer, and I think it would be kinda neat for him to make it before he dies. He is still a big favorite to Indians fans, if you check him out on YouTube, there are a few games where he was honored, to include being included in the Indians' HOF... dale, i don't think perez is a good comparison for colavito. yes, they had similar hr numbers and perez played nearly a decade more, but that's not why perez is in the hof. perez batted .279 for nearly a quarter century, but that's not why he's in the hof. ditto for his ops stats. perez is in cooperstown because he was one of the most consistent high-producing rbi machines in history. in the 14 year stretch from '67-'80... the length of colavito's entire career, perez had 1,375 rbi's. not for his career. just for that 14 year stretch. he averaged 98+ rbi's/season for 14 seasons. if he didn't play another year before '67/after '80, that number would still rank him 86th all time (right behind teammate johnny bench who had 1376 in his career). add in the other 9 seasons he played, and the total is 1,652; that's 29th all-time. the only guys ahead of him who aren't already in the hof are alex rodriguez and albert pujols, who are still playing; jim thome, who becomes eligible in '17; and gary sheffield, who just became eligible last year. perez belongs. |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 10, 2015 18:09:06 GMT -5
I've been looking for a particular email...as I've told you before, I've been a HUGE Rocky fan since the 50s...he was my hero. Although I only get updates on occasion now, there is a rather large fan club that continues to write (pester?) the vet's committee. There are a number of other things besides just hitting for average, etc...Off the top of my head, some of the things I can recall were along the lines of him being one of (X number, not very many) to hit four HRs in a game (Baltimore, June 1959), having a 1.000 Fielding avg, during such & such time, being in the top 5 of MVP ballots, things like that. I couldn't find that particular write up, but did find this one... Hello Barry,
I think you have to look at just mere 'career totals' to get the whole picture. By your yardstick, Bill Mazeroski should never have been inducted. Look at Maz' career totals and you'll faint. He achieved the Hall through his defensive abilities.
I think it is as Rocky once said: a POPULARITY contest. And that means popular to SPORTSWRITERS. That seems to have been the real problem all along. Rocky's 'honesty' was a little too much for some arrogant, egotistical sports scribes of his era. They have not been too forgiving and likely have swayed there sensibilities.
You know, Barry, if you want another real laugh, take a look at HOFer Tony Perez's 'career' numbers:
Seasons At Bats HR AVG
Tony Perez 23 9,778 379 .279
Rocky Colavito 14 6,503 374 .266
The first thing that jumps out is it took Tony Perez 3,275 MORE at bats to hit just 5 (that's FIVE) more homers and in 9 MORE years! Career averages are about the same.
Word of note: I have compiled statistics from the very same (and my favorite) www.baseball-reference.com. So you should be very familiar with the site and easily be able to check for yourself the above statistics.
Now, let's REALLY have some fun and check on Baseball-References' very own major yardstick of performance: OPS. OPS = On Base Percentage + Slugging Average! I love this statistic because it gives a TRUE scope on player production. (did I say I LOVED www.baseball-reference.com?)
And here's the BIG number for them......
Tony Perez - .804 OPS
Rocky Colavito - .848 OPS
I think that speaks for itself. You know, I didn't scour the vast pages to find an 'argument' for Rocky. Actually, a few months ago, I was astounded to read that Tony Perez was a HOFer. I couldn't believe it and looked up his stats on MY favorite stats site: www.baseball-reference.com. I like Perez; always have. I just couldn't believe they inducted him.
As for the list that you posted from baseball-reference.com, I found it also. I believe this is just a computer-kicked out list that falls in the programmed parameters. Just a guideline; nothing more. For instance, here's the 10 that kicks out on Tony Perez:
Harold Baines
Dave Parker
Andre Dawson
Rusty Staub
Luis Gonzalaz
Billy Williams *
Dwight Evans
Al Kaline *
Chili Davis
Jim Rice *
* = denotes by regular eligibilty * = denotes by Veterans Committee
With that in mind, Kaline was the only 'contemporary' of Perez that was actually inducted in his regular stint of eligibility from the very same 'computer-kicked out' list from the very same source. Perhaps the HOF puts too much emphasis on World Series rings? Perez had a HUGE fellow casting of HOFers: Bench, Morgan shoulda been Rose.......Rocky did not! (except perhaps when he was a Tiger with Kaline, Cash & Horton; of which, only Kaline made the Hall)
But anyways, as I said, I was just running it out there to see other peoples' thoughts...you & I have had this discussion, at least partly, before now, and I knew how you felt. Then too, partly because, as Mark mentioned, the Rock is getting up there...lost part of his leg this past summer, and I think it would be kinda neat for him to make it before he dies. He is still a big favorite to Indians fans, if you check him out on YouTube, there are a few games where he was honored, to include being included in the Indians' HOF... |
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Post by beuycek on Nov 10, 2015 19:36:57 GMT -5
Just read something that is a little hard to believe... when Griffey is elected, he will be the first #1 overall pick in the HOF (draft started in '65).
Pretty interesting but also proves what a crapshoot the MLB Draft is.
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