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Post by mscott59 on Nov 10, 2015 23:02:11 GMT -5
I've been looking for a particular email...as I've told you before, I've been a HUGE Rocky fan since the 50s...he was my hero. Although I only get updates on occasion now, there is a rather large fan club that continues to write (pester?) the vet's committee. There are a number of other things besides just hitting for average, etc...Off the top of my head, some of the things I can recall were along the lines of him being one of (X number, not very many) to hit four HRs in a game (Baltimore, June 1959), having a 1.000 Fielding avg, during such & such time, being in the top 5 of MVP ballots, things like that. I couldn't find that particular write up, but did find this one... Hello Barry,
I think you have to look at just mere 'career totals' to get the whole picture. By your yardstick, Bill Mazeroski should never have been inducted. Look at Maz' career totals and you'll faint. He achieved the Hall through his defensive abilities.
I think it is as Rocky once said: a POPULARITY contest. And that means popular to SPORTSWRITERS. That seems to have been the real problem all along. Rocky's 'honesty' was a little too much for some arrogant, egotistical sports scribes of his era. They have not been too forgiving and likely have swayed there sensibilities.
You know, Barry, if you want another real laugh, take a look at HOFer Tony Perez's 'career' numbers:
Seasons At Bats HR AVG
Tony Perez 23 9,778 379 .279
Rocky Colavito 14 6,503 374 .266
The first thing that jumps out is it took Tony Perez 3,275 MORE at bats to hit just 5 (that's FIVE) more homers and in 9 MORE years! Career averages are about the same.
Word of note: I have compiled statistics from the very same (and my favorite) www.baseball-reference.com. So you should be very familiar with the site and easily be able to check for yourself the above statistics.
Now, let's REALLY have some fun and check on Baseball-References' very own major yardstick of performance: OPS. OPS = On Base Percentage + Slugging Average! I love this statistic because it gives a TRUE scope on player production. (did I say I LOVED www.baseball-reference.com?)
And here's the BIG number for them......
Tony Perez - .804 OPS
Rocky Colavito - .848 OPS
I think that speaks for itself. You know, I didn't scour the vast pages to find an 'argument' for Rocky. Actually, a few months ago, I was astounded to read that Tony Perez was a HOFer. I couldn't believe it and looked up his stats on MY favorite stats site: www.baseball-reference.com. I like Perez; always have. I just couldn't believe they inducted him.
As for the list that you posted from baseball-reference.com, I found it also. I believe this is just a computer-kicked out list that falls in the programmed parameters. Just a guideline; nothing more. For instance, here's the 10 that kicks out on Tony Perez:
Harold Baines
Dave Parker
Andre Dawson
Rusty Staub
Luis Gonzalaz
Billy Williams *
Dwight Evans
Al Kaline *
Chili Davis
Jim Rice *
* = denotes by regular eligibilty * = denotes by Veterans Committee
With that in mind, Kaline was the only 'contemporary' of Perez that was actually inducted in his regular stint of eligibility from the very same 'computer-kicked out' list from the very same source. Perhaps the HOF puts too much emphasis on World Series rings? Perez had a HUGE fellow casting of HOFers: Bench, Morgan shoulda been Rose.......Rocky did not! (except perhaps when he was a Tiger with Kaline, Cash & Horton; of which, only Kaline made the Hall)
But anyways, as I said, I was just running it out there to see other peoples' thoughts...you & I have had this discussion, at least partly, before now, and I knew how you felt. Then too, partly because, as Mark mentioned, the Rock is getting up there...lost part of his leg this past summer, and I think it would be kinda neat for him to make it before he dies. He is still a big favorite to Indians fans, if you check him out on YouTube, there are a few games where he was honored, to include being included in the Indians' HOF... IMHO Perez belongs. Maz is in there for one single dramatic unforgettable at bat. Deservedly or not. |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 11, 2015 9:33:26 GMT -5
IMHO Perez belongs. Maz is in there for one single dramatic unforgettable at bat. Deservedly or not. |
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Post by mscott59 on Nov 11, 2015 10:18:29 GMT -5
IMHO Perez belongs. Maz is in there for one single dramatic unforgettable at bat. Deservedly or not. hodges got the voters bump from playing and then managing/coaching in nyc. baseball players are always better when they spend time in nyc. |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 11, 2015 10:42:16 GMT -5
We will just have to disagree on Perez. I'd put him in the same category as Gil Hodges. Good players, but not great, on some very good teams. hodges got the voters bump from playing and then managing/coaching in nyc. baseball players are always better when they spend time in nyc. |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on Nov 11, 2015 10:53:12 GMT -5
We will just have to disagree on Perez. I'd put him in the same category as Gil Hodges. Good players, but not great, on some very good teams. hodges got the voters bump from playing and then managing/coaching in nyc. baseball players are always better when they spend time in nyc. Well...that would seem to be in The Rock's favor, as he was from NYC, and finished with the Yankees... All in favor, say 'AYE.'  |
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Post by Buckeye Dale on Nov 11, 2015 11:02:35 GMT -5
I was looking up the borough that Rocky grew up in, and came across this paragraph in wiki about the High School (Teddy Roosevelt HS):
Transformation[edit]
In the late 1940s, Rocco Colavito, born in 1933 in the Bronx, dropped out Roosevelt after his sophomore year to play semipro baseball.[61] At a Yankee Stadium tryout, after just one throw, Colavito was coveted by a scout for Cleveland's Minor League team and signed a contract at age 17.[61] By the late 1950s, on Cleveland's Major League team, he had inspired fans' maxim Don't knock the Rock, known as "everything a ballplayer should be".[61] In the 1959 baseball season, a June 10 article in the Sporting News named Rocky Colavito the American League player most likely to break Babe Ruth's record of 60 home runs in a season.[61] Yet Rocky experienced a slump, and was traded by Frank "Trader" Lane to the Detroit Tigers in 1960.[61] Upon sportswriter Terry Pluto's 1994 "loving tale" of a curse on the Cleveland Indians ever since, Colavito claimed innocence.[37] Yet recalling "a big mistake", Rocky Colavito had already rued, "I didn't want kids to say, 'He dropped out of school and he made the big leagues'".[61] Meanwhile in the 1950s, the music group Dion and the Belmonts had emerged from the Bronx's Belmont section.[62]
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Post by mscott59 on Nov 11, 2015 12:10:52 GMT -5
hodges got the voters bump from playing and then managing/coaching in nyc. baseball players are always better when they spend time in nyc. lol. oops. wellthen, obviously perez is better. ha |
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 11, 2015 12:13:19 GMT -5
?? Hodges isn't in the HOF. lol. oops. wellthen, obviously perez is better. ha  |
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Post by daleko on Nov 11, 2015 18:26:09 GMT -5
I remember him well...good ballplayer, but (and you knew I would say this) not HOF good. JMO. I can see and appreciate that opinion...UNTIL you look at him in the light of THAT day instead of this one. Compare his numbers to others of that era who ARE in the HOF already. Still not an overwhelming candidate, for sure. But IMO, he is just over the line. <shrug> I can remember hearing a couple people mention in conversation that they thought he already was in. |
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Post by Walter on Nov 11, 2015 18:31:05 GMT -5
You mentioned Hodges, I'd also say Colavito is on par with another non-HOFr Dodger...Duke Snider.
Looking up Snider's record, I came upon this.
TRIVIA QUESTION:
Only two players in MLB had over 1000 RBI in the decade of the 50s.
Name them.
Hodges and Snider.
That is a pretty awesome stat to NOT be in the HOF.
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Post by oujour76 on Nov 11, 2015 19:31:21 GMT -5
You mentioned Hodges, I'd also say Colavito is on par with another non-HOFr Dodger...Duke Snider. Looking up Snider's record, I came upon this. TRIVIA QUESTION: Only two players in MLB had over 1000 RBI in the decade of the 50s. Name them. Hodges and Snider. That is a pretty awesome stat to NOT be in the HOF. |
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Post by canefan on Nov 11, 2015 20:45:34 GMT -5
I know you're a big Rocky fan...and fwiw I couldn't agree more that Perez and Mazeroski do not belong in the HOF. IMHO Perez belongs. Maz is in there for one single dramatic unforgettable at bat. Deservedly or not. I think the big difference between Perez and Colavito is total hits. I think Rocky finished up around 1700 hits in his career but Perez topped 2700, pushing hard for that 3000. I don't see Rocky as a HOF'er but do think Perez belongs. My beef with the Hall is they really focus much more on offensive performances. I've always felt Frank White should be there. He had 2000 hits but only hit about .255 for his career, but he won eight Gold Gloves and really should have won about four more. There wasn't a 2B in either league that could touch him for range or hands when he was at his best. |
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