Willie

[oldgraylady]

Hi Willie,
Hope you had a nice Orthodox Christmas. How did you celebrate?

My Ethiopian Orthodox cousins observed Christmas today as well.

Many blessings.

[Deleted]

Ask him how it feels to be in a cult. Don't remember in the Bible anywhere Jesus saying stupid outfits, chanting, pompous ceremony and holier than thou are necessary to be with the Father in Heaven...

[oldgraylady]

Jan 8, 2017 12:08:07 GMT -5 @kelliers said:

Ask him how it feels to be in a cult. Don't remember in the Bible anywhere Jesus saying stupid outfits, chanting, pompous ceremony and holier than thou are necessary to be with the Father in Heaven...

Fred, please....

[Deleted]

State your request. I made mine, what's yours?

[Deleted]

Jan 8, 2017 12:08:07 GMT -5 @kelliers said:

Ask him how it feels to be in a cult. Don't remember in the Bible anywhere Jesus saying stupid outfits, chanting, pompous ceremony and holier than thou are necessary to be with the Father in Heaven...

Fred,

     Study some basic Church history.  Hard to believe that you still remain so utterly clueless.

[Deleted]

Jan 8, 2017 0:29:01 GMT -5 oldgraylady said:

Hi Willie,
Hope you had a nice Orthodox Christmas. How did you celebrate?

My Ethiopian Orthodox cousins observed Christmas today as well.

Many blessings.

Thank you, OGL.  The traditional Russian Orthodox Nativity greeting is, "Christos Rozdyestvo!"-- "Christ is Born!"

The Orthodox troparion for the Feast of the Nativity is in the 4th tone.

Thy Nativity, O Christ our God,
hath shined upon the world the light of knowledge,
for, thereby, those who worshiped the stars,
were taught by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness,
and to know Thee, the Dayspring from on high,
O, Lord, glory be to Thee.


Our family usually celebrates Western "Christmas" on December 25th-- Christmas tree, presents, English carols, etc.-- and we focus on the spiritual Russian Orthodox prayers and liturgy of the Feast of the Nativity on January 7th.

Because we fast for several weeks before Russian Orthodox "Christmas"-- no meat or dairy-- it is a big deal just to end the fast on January 7th.  So, we all had bacon and eggs for breakfast yesterday, and I cooked chicken picata for dinner.

(BTW, most Americans don't realize that young George Washington and the American colonists celebrated Christmas on the old Russian (Julian) calendar-- January 7th-- until the British adopted the Papal (Gregorian) calendar in the mid-18th century.)




The real St. Nicholas was the 4th century Orthodox Christian Bishop of Myra in Lycia-- in present day Turkey.

His feast day is celebrated on December 6/19.


St. Nicholas

[Deleted]

Still waiting for a response as to why being a Christian involves wearing stupid costumes, chanting a bunch of gobbelty-gook and acting better than any other cult organization. Jesus never said any of that garbage was necessary, only Nied erhut and his holier than thou 'church' with manmade rules says you must comply. And Nied erhut is more than happy to go from atheist to Cool-Aid drinking lemming.

[oldgraylady]

Jan 8, 2017 16:59:39 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Jan 8, 2017 0:29:01 GMT -5 oldgraylady said:

Hi Willie,
Hope you had a nice Orthodox Christmas. How did you celebrate?

My Ethiopian Orthodox cousins observed Christmas today as well.

Many blessings.

Thank you, OGL.  The traditional Russian Orthodox Nativity greeting is, "Christos Rozdyestvo!"-- "Christ is Born!"

The Orthodox troparion for the Feast of the Nativity is in the 4th tone.

Thy Nativity, O Christ our God,
hath shined upon the world the light of knowledge,
for, thereby, those who worshiped the stars,
were taught by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness,
and to know Thee, the Dayspring from on high,
O, Lord, glory be to Thee.


Our family usually celebrates Western "Christmas" on December 25th-- Christmas tree, presents, English carols, etc.-- and we focus on the spiritual Russian Orthodox prayers and liturgy of the Feast of the Nativity on January 7th.

Because we fast for several weeks before Russian Orthodox "Christmas"-- no meat or dairy-- it is a big deal just to end the fast on January 7th.  So, we all had bacon and eggs for breakfast yesterday, and I cooked chicken picata for dinner.

(BTW, most Americans don't realize that young George Washington and the American colonists celebrated Christmas on the old Russian (Julian) calendar-- January 7th-- until the British adopted the Papal (Gregorian) calendar in the mid-18th century.)




The real St. Nicholas was the 4th century Orthodox Christian Bishop of Myra in Lycia-- in present day Turkey.

His feast day is celebrated on December 6/19.


St. Nicholas

Nice. Thank you.

[Deleted]

Jan 8, 2017 17:39:31 GMT -5 @kelliers said:

Still waiting for a response as to why being a Christian involves wearing stupid costumes, chanting a bunch of gobbelty-gook and acting better than any other cult organization. Jesus never said any of that garbage was necessary, only Nied erhut and his holier than thou 'church' with manmade rules says you must comply. And Nied erhut is more than happy to go from atheist to Cool-Aid drinking lemming.

     Wrong, Fred.   In the canonical (Biblical) Gospels, the Lord directly described aspects of the sacramental grace bestowed upon His chosen Apostles.

     "Whose sins ye forgive shall be forgiven, etc."

      Furthermore, even the canonical (Biblical) Epistles and earliest written epistles of the post-Apostolic Fathers  (e.g., those of St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Barnabus, et.al.) describe the Apostolic ordination of the carefully chosen Elders (presbyteroi) and bishops of the Church.

      The Lord did not simply leave His Holy Church in the hands of any Tom, Dick, or Harry who fancied himself a spiritual elder.

      If you study Eusebius, you will see a very explicit delineation of Apostolic succession within the Church, throughout the Roman Empire.

      As for the vestments and ancient liturgies of the Church, these were derived from the Jewish synagogues in which the Church originated.

      The Church was established by righteous Jews, and all of the Twelve Apostles and earliest bishops were Jews. 

      The form of the Orthodox liturgy, even today, is similar to the rites of the first century Hebrew synagogues.

    

[oujour76]

Jan 8, 2017 22:33:25 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

      The Lord did not simply leave His Holy Church in the hands of any Tom, Dick, or Harry

Sez you.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2017 11:51:43 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jan 8, 2017 22:33:25 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

      The Lord did not simply leave His Holy Church in the hands of any Tom, Dick, or Harry

Sez you.

       
  Sez the New Testament and the historical documents of early Christendom that you have never read, Harry-- the Ante Nicene Fathers....


  

[oujour76]

Jan 9, 2017 14:48:30 GMT -5 DrSchadenfreude said:

Jan 9, 2017 11:51:43 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Sez you.

       
  Sez the New Testament and the historical documents of early Christendom that you have never read, Harry-- the Ante Nicene Fathers....

Sez you.

[Deleted]

The New Testament says no such thing. Jesus said no such thing.
It's all sez him Nied erhut, the ex-nonbeliever/current brainwashed cultist, the self-approved interpreter of God's word.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2017 15:27:38 GMT -5 @kelliers said:

The New Testament says no such thing. Jesus said no such thing.
It's all sez him Nied erhut, the ex-nonbeliever/current brainwashed cultist, the self-approved interpreter of God's word.

Fred,

     Your abysmal ignorance never ceases to amaze me.  Study Eusebius.  Don't remain an ignoramus forever.

     Study these canonical scriptures (in red.)


Apostolic succession of the Holy Church
orthodoxwiki.org/Apostolic_succession



Apostolic succession is the tracing of a direct line of apostolic ordination, Orthodox doctrine, and full communion from the Apostles to the current episcopacy of the Orthodox Church. All three elements are constitutive of Apostolic succession.

It is through Apostolic succession that the Orthodox Christian Church is the spiritual successor to the original body of believers in Christ that was composed of the Apostles. This succession manifests itself through the unbroken succession of its bishops back to the Apostles.

The historical continuity of Apostolic succession is significant because of Jesus Christ's promise that the "gates of hell" (Matthew 16:18) would not prevail against the Church, and his promise that he himself would be with the apostles to "the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20). According to this interpretation, a complete disruption or end of such Apostolic succession would mean that these promises were not kept as would an Apostolic succession which, while formally intact, completely abandoned the teachings of the Apostles and their immediate successors; as, for example, if all the bishops of the world agreed to abrogate the Nicene Creed or repudiate the Holy Scripture.

Orthodox teachings today are the same as that of the first Apostles, though their mode of expression has adapted over the centuries to deal with heresies, changes in culture and so forth. This form of the doctrine was first formulated by St. Irenaeus of Lyons in the second century, in response to certain Gnostics. These Gnostics claimed that Christ or the Apostles passed on some teachings secretly, or that there were some secret apostles, and that they (the Gnostics) were passing on these otherwise secret teachings. Irenaeus responded that the identity of the original Apostles was well known, as was the main content of their teaching and the identity of the Apostles' successors. Therefore, anyone teaching something contrary to what was known to be Apostolic teaching was not, in any sense, a successor to the Apostles or to Christ.

In addition to a line of historic transmission, Orthodox Christian churches additionally require that a hierarch maintain Orthodox doctrine as well as full communion with other Orthodox bishops. As such, the Orthodox do not recognize the existence of apostolic succession outside the Orthodox Church, precisely because the episcopacy is a ministry within the Church.



Scriptural references to Apostolic Authority

No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Acts 5:13 (Note: this shows that the early Christians had a reverence for them)


We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. Acts 15:24


As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. Acts 16:4


For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God. 2 Corinthians 2:17 (Note: this shows that the office they hold is more then self appointed authority).


having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone Eph. 2:20 (Note: the word founation is used to describe "the apostles and prophets", not just St. Peter)


Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. Acts 20:28 (Note: this is a clear testimony that the Holy Spirit appointed the Twelve to be "overseers" and "shepherds of the church")


As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. John 17:18 (Note: the Bible compares the ministry of Jesus to that of the Twelve)
Transfer of Apostolic Authority Via the Holy Mystery of Ordination

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. Acts 14:23


Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Acts 9:17-19 (Note: it is also possible that this is a reference to Christmaton.)


"Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them. Acts 6:3-6


I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 2 Tim. 4:1-6 (St. Paul hands down his ministry to Timothy)


For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 2 Tim. 1:6 (Note: Paul reminds Timothy of the gift he received through laying of hands)


Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 1 Tim. 4:14 (Note: This shows that divine authority is bestowed unto someone using laying on of hands)


In those days Peter stood up among the believers(a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, " 'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, " 'May another take his place of leadership.' Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. Acts 1:15-26


The Testimony Of The Early Church

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" First Epistle of Clement Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 A.D. 80


"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" Hegesippus Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 A.D. 180


"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:3:1 A.D. 189


"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" Tertullian Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 A.D. 200