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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 12:51:44 GMT -5
Robb, What utter misinterpretation. Do you really not know that the scriptures, themselves, have instructed us from the very beginning of the history of the Church to "hold fast to the traditions" taught by the Apostles and those that they ordained to govern the Church? And what Church did they establish in Jerusalem, Antioch, Greece, Alexandria, and Rome from the beginning? Study some actual ecclesiastical history for a change. It was always the Orthodox/Catholic Church. What do you think St. Paul meant by "traditions?" The Church theoria and praxis was NEVER based on "sola scriptura," as Martin Luther argued 1,500 years later. The Church (now Orthodox/Roman Catholic) was always guided by both the traditions, and scriptures, of the Apostles. The "sola scriptura" concept of Martin Luther and Protestantism is not even scriptural. I know, because I was raised as a Protestant, and excelled far above my peers in the study of scripture. I'll ask you again. Does your church display graven images, such as Christ on the cross, images of Heaven or Hell, angels, etc.?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 12:57:31 GMT -5
Hell's angels ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 13:03:01 GMT -5
Fred, My church is the Church-- the Church of the Seven Great Ecumenical Councils-- from Nicea (324 A.D.) to the Seventh, affirming the veneration of holy images, icons. Statues are not permitted in the Church-- never have been in the Orthodox east-- but holy images are venerated as "windows" to the spiritual realm. Because God became man at the Incarnation, it is meet and right to represent the image of Christ and the saints through iconography. The holy images are not "worshiped," but they are venerated as representations of the spiritual realm, and have been for more than 1,000 years prior to the invention of modern era Protestantism by Martin Luther and others in western Europe. Pantocrator/ Hagia Sophia / Constantinople
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 13:12:31 GMT -5
You want hell's angels, 1961? How about this 7th century icon from St. Catherine's Orthodox Monastery in the Sinai Desert? This is the same monastery where philologists found the oldest existing copy of the Bible-- the Codex Sinaiticus (now at the Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg.) The Orthodox Ladder of Divine Ascent/ 7th Century
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 13:12:40 GMT -5
Fred, My church is the Church-- the Church of the Seven Great Ecumenical Councils-- from Nicea (324 A.D.) to the Seventh, affirming the veneration of holy images, icons. Statues are not permitted in the Church-- never have been in the Orthodox east-- but holy images are venerated as "windows" to the spiritual realm. Because God became man at the Incarnation, it is meet and right to represent the image of Christ and the saints through iconography. The holy images are not "worshiped," but they are venerated as representations of the spiritual realm, and have been for more than 1,000 years prior to the invention of modern era Protestantism by Martin Luther and others in western Europe. Pantocrator/ 6th Century/ Hagia Sophia / Constantinople I see. So you and your church do worship graven images. I assume your religion also uses your own interpretation of The Bible to suit your needs? www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/missingcommandment.html
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 13:19:45 GMT -5
Fred, My church is the Church-- the Church of the Seven Great Ecumenical Councils-- from Nicea (324 A.D.) to the Seventh, affirming the veneration of holy images, icons. Statues are not permitted in the Church-- never have been in the Orthodox east-- but holy images are venerated as "windows" to the spiritual realm. Because God became man at the Incarnation, it is meet and right to represent the image of Christ and the saints through iconography. The holy images are not "worshiped," but they are venerated as representations of the spiritual realm, and have been for more than 1,000 years prior to the invention of modern era Protestantism by Martin Luther and others in western Europe. Pantocrator/ 6th Century/ Hagia Sophia / Constantinople I see. So you and your church do worship graven images. I assume your religion also uses your own interpretation of The Bible to suit your needs? www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/missingcommandment.htmlFred, You are in way over your head in this debate. Study some basic ecclesiastical and theological history. Then we can carry on a quasi-rational discussion. All of these theologically debates were resolved in great detail and depth by much wiser, spiritually sanctified men than you and I in the Great Councils-- more than 1,000 years ago. Read St. John of Damascus on the subject of the veneration of holy images.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 13:23:35 GMT -5
Sorry, buddy. Your beliefs and mine differ. You seem to be stuck in what men have decided religion is to be.
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Post by oujour76 on Dec 13, 2012 13:27:19 GMT -5
1961, The eastern Orthodox Church is the authentic, 2,000 year old Church established by the Apostles at Pentecost (along with the Latin "Roman Catholic" half of the ancient Church.) It was preserved and protected primarily by the Russian Emperor after Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453. Moscow was the "Third Rome." (Rome fell to the Ostrogoths in 410 A.D., and Byzantium fell in 1453.) Christendom ended in 1917 with the execution of Tsar Nicholas II by the Bolsheviks, but the traditional Russian Orthodox Church was preserved by the White Russian exiles to Western Europe, America, and Australia until May of 2007, when Putin and the KGB hierarchs of the pseudo-church in Moscow took over the ROCOR in an internal political coup. I am a member of the part of the White Russian Church that did not accept the KGB take over in 2007. Our chief heirarch is Metropolitan Agafangel of Odessa-- one of the few Russian bishops who was not successfully bribed or broken by the KGB by 2006. Agafangel is still alive (in the Ukraine) but may not survive for long, IMO. Willie...you seem to pick and choose here to suit whatever needs you have at the time.How can there be 2 "authentic" churches? Does your branch believe in the Pope? If no, how can the Catholics be authentic? And vice versa?
You're a big believer in church hierarchy and the Ecumenicial councils and all that other hoo hah.....until you don't agree, of course and then your church breaks off and the "traditional" Russian Orthodox Church is suddenly located in Denver. And best of all for you, it's the "authentic" church. Well, part of it anyway.
As I've said to you many times, I'm glad you found a church that works for you....but, leave it at that. Your church is no better or worse than several others.
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Post by oujour76 on Dec 13, 2012 13:53:18 GMT -5
Fred, My church is the Church-- the Church of the Seven Great Ecumenical Councils-- from Nicea (324 A.D.) to the Seventh, affirming the veneration of holy images, icons. Statues are not permitted in the Church-- never have been in the Orthodox east-- but holy images are venerated as "windows" to the spiritual realm. Because God became man at the Incarnation, it is meet and right to represent the image of Christ and the saints through iconography. The holy images are not "worshiped," but they are venerated as representations of the spiritual realm, and have been for more than 1,000 years prior to the invention of modern era Protestantism by Martin Luther and others in western Europe. Don't forget that the meaning and interpretation of the word is only revealed and understood by a select few. Amazingly enough, it is the select few who tell us this.
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Post by oujour76 on Dec 13, 2012 13:55:22 GMT -5
Hell, all churches do that. Willie just won't admit that his does it, too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 14:47:36 GMT -5
Harry,
The Orthodox Church has not been in communion with the Roman Catholic (western Orthodox) Church since 1054 A.D. The two were one and the same Church for 1,000 years prior to the Great Schism. There is a vast literature on this subject, although most Catholics and Protestants only know the Roman Catholic version of the story-- because our Western European historical narrative was written by and for the modern Papacy.
The most comprehensive analysis of the modern Papacy in relation to the traditional Orthodox Catholic Church is The Papacy by Abbe Guette. The book was banned by the Papacy when it was published.
The Byzantine Empire was, of course, destroyed by Islam-- and the Ecumenical Patriarch at Constantinople has survived precariously since 1453. I met Ecumenichal Patriarch Bartholomew in Istanbul in 2000. There was an armed guard with a machine gun at the gate of the Phenar that day.
As for the Russian Orthodox Church-- it was largely destroyed by the Bolsheviks and their successors during the past 80 years. The current hierarchs of the "church" in Russia are confirmed KGB agents-- based on the Mitrokhin archives.
But, interestingly, the Church has never believed in chiliasm-- the notion that everything on earth (including the Church itself) will get bigger and better. On the contrary, the Church has always thought that humanity is progressing toward inexorable self-destruction. As the scripture asks, "When Christ returns, will there still be true faith upon the earth?"
Some modern Orthodox Christian writers believe that the beginning of the end times started with the end of Christendom-- the destruction of the last Orthodox Christian empire-- in 1917. I happen to think that is correct. We're fucked.
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Post by gatr55555 on Dec 13, 2012 16:47:07 GMT -5
This is the "food' board religious board is thataway^^^^^^^^^
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Post by Coaltrain on Dec 13, 2012 19:20:38 GMT -5
FIGHT FAIR!!
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Post by Coaltrain on Dec 13, 2012 19:23:58 GMT -5
Harry, The Orthodox Church has not been in communion with the Roman Catholic (western Orthodox) Church since 1054 A.D. The two were one and the same Church for 1,000 years prior to the Great Schism. There is a vast literature on this subject, although most Catholics and Protestants only know the Roman Catholic version of the story-- because our Western European historical narrative was written by and for the modern Papacy. The most comprehensive analysis of the modern Papacy in relation to the traditional Orthodox Catholic Church is The Papacy by Abbe Guette. The book was banned by the Papacy when it was published. The Byzantine Empire was, of course, destroyed by Islam-- and the Ecumenical Patriarch at Constantinople has survived precariously since 1453. I met Ecumenichal Patriarch Bartholomew in Istanbul in 2000. There was an armed guard with a machine gun at the gate of the Phenar that day. As for the Russian Orthodox Church-- it was largely destroyed by the Bolsheviks and their successors during the past 80 years. The current hierarchs of the "church" in Russia are confirmed KGB agents-- based on the Mitrokhin archives. But, interestingly, the Church has never believed in chiliasm-- the notion that everything on earth (including the Church itself) will get bigger and better. On the contrary, the Church has always thought that humanity is progressing toward inexorable self-destruction. As the scripture asks, "When Christ returns, will there still be true faith upon the earth?" Some modern Orthodox Christian writers believe that the beginning of the end times started with the end of Christendom-- the destruction of the last Orthodox Christian empire-- in 1917. I happen to think that is correct. We're fucked. How come all the loooong explanations? What ever happened to KEEPING IT SIMPLE?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2012 19:27:22 GMT -5
Harry, The Orthodox Church has not been in communion with the Roman Catholic (western Orthodox) Church since 1054 A.D. The two were one and the same Church for 1,000 years prior to the Great Schism. There is a vast literature on this subject, although most Catholics and Protestants only know the Roman Catholic version of the story-- because our Western European historical narrative was written by and for the modern Papacy. The most comprehensive analysis of the modern Papacy in relation to the traditional Orthodox Catholic Church is The Papacy by Abbe Guette. The book was banned by the Papacy when it was published. The Byzantine Empire was, of course, destroyed by Islam-- and the Ecumenical Patriarch at Constantinople has survived precariously since 1453. I met Ecumenichal Patriarch Bartholomew in Istanbul in 2000. There was an armed guard with a machine gun at the gate of the Phenar that day. As for the Russian Orthodox Church-- it was largely destroyed by the Bolsheviks and their successors during the past 80 years. The current hierarchs of the "church" in Russia are confirmed KGB agents-- based on the Mitrokhin archives. But, interestingly, the Church has never believed in chiliasm-- the notion that everything on earth (including the Church itself) will get bigger and better. On the contrary, the Church has always thought that humanity is progressing toward inexorable self-destruction. As the scripture asks, "When Christ returns, will there still be true faith upon the earth?" Some modern Orthodox Christian writers believe that the beginning of the end times started with the end of Christendom-- the destruction of the last Orthodox Christian empire-- in 1917. I happen to think that is correct. We're fucked. How come all the loooong explanations? What ever happened to KEEPING IT SIMPLE? Have you ever known a cultist to keep it simple?
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