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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 20:26:59 GMT -5
Going down into a valley is NOT a good idea. If you are in a valley and the ceiling drops even lower, you are really screwed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. A perfect outcome would have been for the pilot to tell ATC "I can't see. I am going to find an open area, set this thing down and wait it out." He would have had 8 pissed-off passengers, but they would all be alive to be pissed off.
The good thing about SVFR in a helicopter is that it can fly so slow that the pilot can see and avoid obstacles that a fixed wing aircraft would not have time to avoid. One of the witnesses said he saw and heard the helo flying very low and slow, although it was so foggy that he could not even really describe the helicopter. In order to fly SVR in IFR, both the pilot and the aircraft must be rated for IFR, which brings up another interesting question. Why didn't the guy go ahead and file for IFR? I have to wonder if he was flying over his head, figuratively and literally. Many chopper pilots are VFR-only rated.
The cause will probably be pilot error, fueled by a condition common to pilots known as "get there-itis." Too many pilots think the importance of the trip is worth the risk of not making it. Pilots for hire are sometimes pressured to fly by their clients, even though their own good sense tells them not to fly. Get there-itis is not always fatal, but it can cause some bent airplanes, or some really harrowing white-knuckle experiences. If that is the case, the official NTSB ruling will be something like "continued VFR flight into IFR conditions." A cold clinical phrase for "he was stupid."
If I got a weather briefing from flight service before a planned flight and I heard "VFR flight is not recommended," I scrubbed. I'm not IFR certified and my flights were for pleasure, not self-induced terror. I DO have enough instrument training to hopefully save my ass if somehow I stupidly got myself into clouds, but the keywords are "stupidly" and "hopefully." I'm not suicidal nor would I want to risk innocent people either with me or on the ground.
At this point, I am not gonna guess exactly what happened in this case. Mechanical failure could be involved as well. It seems like we can rule out power loss, but maybe not. IOW --- who knows?
A lot of ifs, but it will probably turn out to be a typical small aircraft crash story --- the pilot was overwhelmed. With no survivors and most likely no CVR or FDR, without evidence of in-flight mechanical issues, NTSB will probably just have to give it their best guess.
I can tell you this. Had I had been VFR only rated, and woke up in SoCal that morning, no way I'd have flown. It was a pretty gloomy day here. From what I can tell, it would have been illegal for a VFR only pilot to fly in those conditions anyway. If you are at a controlled airport like LAX, and you see the rotating green and white beacon turned on in the daytime, that means flight conditions are IFR only.
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Post by beuycek on Jan 27, 2020 20:53:55 GMT -5
Not surprisingly, you missed the point. I said the exact same thing using different wording. Did YOU have a point? No ................ you didn't.
Keep on trolling, proving you are clueless.
The point was you said you weren't going to guess right after you guessed what the cause was. Then followed it up with another guess. You are atill a clown show® no matter the subject. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 21:46:02 GMT -5
I said the exact same thing using different wording. Did YOU have a point? No ................ you didn't.
Keep on trolling, proving you are clueless.
The point was you said you weren't going to guess right after you guessed what the cause was. Then followed it up with another guess. You are atill a clown show® no matter the subject.
You never stop being wrong, but by all means, keep going!!
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Post by oldgraylady4 on Jan 27, 2020 22:10:31 GMT -5
ugh. this one hurts. the house kobe lived in during high school is approx a half a mile from my current house. i drive by it every morning when i drop my son off at daycare. he played basketball at the same community center that i currently go to. my brother in law was a hockey goalie and graduated in the same class as kobe at lower merion. since they were both athletes, they ran in same social circles. my wife told me she met kobe at her bro's graduation party. kobe was a legend in high school. besides carrying lower merion to a state college, his decision to go straight to the pro's occurred when it wasn't a common occurrence. his father joe bryant was a star at lasalle. and lasalle hired joe to be an assistant coach in hopes of landing kobe. if kobe decided to play college basketball, there's a good chance it would have been at lasalle unviversity. you know who else was a basketball legend in philly when kobe was in high school? rip hamilton. he played at a rival of lower merion (coatesville). in fact, kobe and rip hamilton played each other in the district playoffs in 1996. kobe won. Wow, since when did you have a son? Congratulations. |
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Post by beuycek on Jan 27, 2020 22:16:13 GMT -5
The point was you said you weren't going to guess right after you guessed what the cause was. Then followed it up with another guess. You are atill a clown show® no matter the subject. You never stop being wrong, but by all means, keep going!!
Oh ok, much clearer. You weren't to "guess exactly" (as if anyone could possibly do such a thing from LA) but you are going to get your money's worth guessing nonetheless. Absolute clown show®... |
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Post by oldgraylady4 on Jan 27, 2020 22:17:26 GMT -5
ugh. this one hurts. the house kobe lived in during high school is approx a half a mile from my current house. i drive by it every morning when i drop my son off at daycare. he played basketball at the same community center that i currently go to. my brother in law was a hockey goalie and graduated in the same class as kobe at lower merion. since they were both athletes, they ran in same social circles. my wife told me she met kobe at her bro's graduation party. kobe was a legend in high school. besides carrying lower merion to a state college, his decision to go straight to the pro's occurred when it wasn't a common occurrence. his father joe bryant was a star at lasalle. and lasalle hired joe to be an assistant coach in hopes of landing kobe. if kobe decided to play college basketball, there's a good chance it would have been at lasalle unviversity. you know who else was a basketball legend in philly when kobe was in high school? rip hamilton. he played at a rival of lower merion (coatesville). in fact, kobe and rip hamilton played each other in the district playoffs in 1996. kobe won. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 22:24:29 GMT -5
"At this point, I am not gonna guess exactly what happened in this case."You never stop being wrong, but by all means, keep going!!
Oh ok, much clearer. You weren't to "guess exactly" (as if anyone could possibly do such a thing from LA) but you are going to get your money's worth guessing nonetheless. Absolute clown show®... I was simply throwing out ideas and possibilities. If I knew exactly what happened, my name would be Ara Zobayan, and I wouldn't be writing this. And if it was some type of structural failure, even HE probably doesn't know.
Continue to be a dick. The role suits you well. All because Ohio State wasn't good enough to beat Clemson, much less a great team like LSU.
At least you admit you know NOTHING about aircraft, flying or aircraft operations in general. Instead of learning something, you act like a douche. Oh well ............. that's YOUR problem, not mine.
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Post by beuycek on Jan 27, 2020 22:42:19 GMT -5
Oh ok, much clearer. You weren't to "guess exactly" (as if anyone could possibly do such a thing from LA) but you are going to get your money's worth guessing nonetheless. Absolute clown show®... I was simply throwing out ideas and possibilities. If I knew exactly what happened, my name would be Ara Zobayan, and I wouldn't be writing this. And if it was some type of structural failure, even HE probably doesn't know.
Continue to be a dick. The role suits you well. All because Ohio State wasn't good enough to beat Clemson, much less a great team like LSU.
At least you admit you know NOTHING about aircraft, flying or aircraft operations in general. Instead of learning something, you act like a douche. Oh well ............. that's YOUR problem, not mine.
Let's be perfectly clear... I never would have engaged you had you not done so first in this thread. And why was that? Well, if I was a betting man i would say it was because your racist ass couldn't handle a black man getting some attention. And now you are suggesting it is because LSU won and Ohio State didn't. Absolutely comical. I will absolutely continue to be a dick to you because there is no one here more deserving. Plus you make it so damn easy... LOL |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 23:15:18 GMT -5
I was simply throwing out ideas and possibilities. If I knew exactly what happened, my name would be Ara Zobayan, and I wouldn't be writing this. And if it was some type of structural failure, even HE probably doesn't know.
Continue to be a dick. The role suits you well. All because Ohio State wasn't good enough to beat Clemson, much less a great team like LSU.
At least you admit you know NOTHING about aircraft, flying or aircraft operations in general. Instead of learning something, you act like a douche. Oh well ............. that's YOUR problem, not mine.
Let's be perfectly clear... I never would have engaged you had you not done so first in this thread. And why was that? Well, if I was a betting man i would say it was because your racist ass couldn't handle a black man getting some attention. And now you are suggesting it is because LSU won and Ohio State didn't. Absolutely comical. I will absolutely continue to be a dick to you because there is no one here more deserving. Plus you make it so damn easy... LOL I would have said the same thing if it had been ANY one person who is getting the attention. Check the media and see who is getting talked about, clown.
Hell, Baton Rouge is putting up billboards just for HIM!
Want me to be honest? I have more concern for the PILOT and HIS family than "poor Kobe." We know for a fact on previous occasions, Bryant had ordered a pilot to do military aerobatics and perform an autorotation in a helicopter. Those are things you DON'T do when carrying passengers on commercial flights. In fact, they violate FAA rules.
Bryant was on his way to some kids' basketball game. Classic "get there-itis." He probably threatened the pilot with his job if he didn't comply with Bryant's wishes to fly when flying was not a good idea. The pilot was probably intimidated and forgot that the PILOT is always in charge. The client isn't in charge. The FAA isn't in charge. ATC isn't in charge. The pilot has final say over command of the aircraft. He should have stiffened his backbone, told Kobe to go fcuck himself, climbed to a safe altitude, and terminated the flight.
Yeah, THAT is my guess, and it is based on years of VFR into IMC crash studies. Ignorant, egotistical bosses have killed more than one good pilot. THIS ONE also killed his own daughter and 6 more innocent people.
To be totally fair, MAYBE it was the pilot who was hotdogging and wanting to prove how great he was. Maybe. Maybe Kobe was an innocent victim too. BUT, if that guy were actually a flight instructor who also teaches IFR flying, I can't see him not practicing what he should be preaching. I have very close connections to a CFI-I with about 40 years of experience who has trained MILITARY pilots, and I know how they teach and what they teach -- in terms of safety.
Here's another clue: Witnesses said the helicopter was seen in a descending turn. That is a common sign of spatial disorientation, when the pilot trusts his inner ear instead of his instruments. The instruments told him he was flying straight and level. His ears told him he was climbing and turning, so he pushed down and turned in the opposite direction.
I know what this is like. I have flown strictly on instruments, and if you DON'T trust them completely, your body will fool you into thinking the aircraft is doing something it is not. It was fun doing it, but I also knew I was just practicing, and I had another pilot sitting alongside of me who had a perfect view outside and would have taken over if I couldn't correct something myself. It's different when it is for real. I have accidentally gotten into IMC while flying with a non-pilot passenger, and there was no one there to save our ass. I did the smart thing, executed a gentle 180o turn, and retreated back to clear skies. I had to land and wait it out only 40 miles from my home airport, but WE LIVED.
Now say what you want. I don't care.
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Post by snap infraction on Jan 28, 2020 8:04:19 GMT -5
Thanks for correcting me about the crash footage. I should have looked into it more closely. On review, it does appear that visibility is much better than reported at the CA crash site. I hope Youtube will remove that.
It doesn't matter how many people were in the crash. One person is not more important than the others that were killed. THAT is what matters.
My original post didn't single anyone out. I said it was tragic that his daughter also passed and was saddened for the families of the other passengers. Sorry I didn't call them out by name but that information wasn't available at the time. You get bunged up about the weirdest shit... here's a post from mutt a few weeks ago expressing condolences to steve ensminger's family after he tragically lost his daughter in law to a plane crash. strange that he neglected to mention the other victims of that plane crash. i guess he didn't find them to be as important. |
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Post by beuycek on Jan 28, 2020 8:12:09 GMT -5
My original post didn't single anyone out. I said it was tragic that his daughter also passed and was saddened for the families of the other passengers. Sorry I didn't call them out by name but that information wasn't available at the time. You get bunged up about the weirdest shit... here's a post from mutt a few weeks ago expressing condolences to steve ensminger's family after he tragically lost his daughter in law to a plane crash. strange that he neglected to mention the other victims of that plane crash. i guess he didn't find them to be as important. She was white. That makes a difference with him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 22:57:00 GMT -5
My original post didn't single anyone out. I said it was tragic that his daughter also passed and was saddened for the families of the other passengers. Sorry I didn't call them out by name but that information wasn't available at the time. You get bunged up about the weirdest shit... here's a post from mutt a few weeks ago expressing condolences to steve ensminger's family after he tragically lost his daughter in law to a plane crash. strange that he neglected to mention the other victims of that plane crash. i guess he didn't find them to be as important. That post was made on the day of the game, only a few hours after the crash.
I am also not a member of the media who immediately started worshiping Kobe while ignoring the others. It is THEIR job to treat everyone fairly, not mine. Why is the media ignoring the fact that Kobe Bryant was a rapist?
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Post by cbisbig on Jan 30, 2020 7:38:40 GMT -5
aolcfboutcasts.proboards.com/thread/43861/shockingly-sad-day-lsuhere's a post from mutt a few weeks ago expressing condolences to steve ensminger's family after he tragically lost his daughter in law to a plane crash. strange that he neglected to mention the other victims of that plane crash. i guess he didn't find them to be as important. That post was made on the day of the game, only a few hours after the crash.
I am also not a member of the media who immediately started worshiping Kobe while ignoring the others. It is THEIR job to treat everyone fairly, not mine. Why is the media ignoring the fact that Kobe Bryant was a rapist? My guess is you weren't a very good cop. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant_sexual_assault_case#Criminal_case |
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Post by snap infraction on Jan 30, 2020 8:06:02 GMT -5
aolcfboutcasts.proboards.com/thread/43861/shockingly-sad-day-lsuhere's a post from mutt a few weeks ago expressing condolences to steve ensminger's family after he tragically lost his daughter in law to a plane crash. strange that he neglected to mention the other victims of that plane crash. i guess he didn't find them to be as important. That post was made on the day of the game, only a few hours after the crash.
I am also not a member of the media who immediately started worshiping Kobe while ignoring the others. It is THEIR job to treat everyone fairly, not mine. Why is the media ignoring the fact that Kobe Bryant was a rapist?
kobe was convicted of rape? that's news to me. kobe was worshipped b/c he was very successful in his field and society worships excellence. and his field happened to be basketball and the nba is a very popular league. yes kobe was flawed. but flawed people deserve to be mourned as well. the others weren't ignored. most coverage of the tragedy has properly acknowledged the others. for whatever reason , you resent a successful african american being worshiped. that's your problem and i feel sorry that you harbor such petty resentment. there are a lot of others out there like you but most are smart and respectful enough to keep quiet about it. |
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Post by cbisbig on Jan 30, 2020 8:26:26 GMT -5
Visibility was not terribly good. the entire region was overcast and foggy, though I believe there is reference made out of ATC about VFR. That said, with a low deck, it seems odd to not have followed the natural valley between the SF valley and TO. The chopper was significantly south of it in an area with terrain close to the reported ceiling of 1500ft. had taken the grandkids to a dinosaur expo (more like a county fair-lol) in downtown columbus when notifications started blowing up just before 2 est. of course it’s a tragedy for all involved, especially the kids on board. but kobe was known around the world. of course his death is going to get attention. was thinking last night about how many notable people in american history have lost their lives in private aircraft tragedies down they the years. for those of you who’ve never flown in a chopper, it is a different feeling/experience, especially when you can see those blades spinning above your head. Davey Allison comes to mind, was piloting his own helicopter leaving the infield at Talladega Speedway. I have flown in a helicopter one time. Paid for a short flight around the fairgrounds, the chopper would only hold three passengers all up front. Now at the time I was about 6 foot 8 265 lb my buddy was about 6 one 240 lb and the chopper pilot had to be at least 6 ft tall and he had a big old gut on him so I'm guessing he was at least 250 lb and that Chopper had a hell of a time lifting us up off the ground. Needless to say it was a little scary up there thankfully the flight Only lasted about three minutes 😂 |
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