speaking of old coaches...

[mscott59]

... while flipping thru channels eating lunch, just watched the last 90 minutes of 'the last days of knight' on espn-u, which originally aired in '18 I think. great piece done by robert abbott, who was working for cnn/si during the late 90s when stories began surfacing about the talented, turbulent coach abusing players, and one of them, neil reed, finally went on the record about bobby grabbing him by the neck during a practice, the reax inside/outside the iu community and the aftermath that eventually ended knight's career in bloomington. hadn't seen it since it first aired, and it was still mesmerizing. reed was absolutely vilified by hoosier fans and many school administrators, even after a video tape proving him truthful surfaced. reed left iu, bounced around a little playing in europe, and then went out west, teaching/coaching hoops/golf at a small hs in california where he was happy and beloved, marrying w/2 little girls. but then he suffered a massive heart attack and died at age 36 back in '12. nationally his legacy was being the tipping point of ending a storied coach's tenure, but locally his legacy was how he affected kids by being a lot of things knight was not.

[Mickey34jb]

Apr 6, 2022 13:14:34 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

... while flipping thru channels eating lunch, just watched the last 90 minutes of 'the last days of knight' on espn-u, which originally aired in '18 I think. great piece done by robert abbott, who was working for cnn/si during the late 90s when stories began surfacing about the talented, turbulent coach abusing players, and one of them, neil reed, finally went on the record about bobby grabbing him by the neck during a practice, the reax inside/outside the iu community and the aftermath that eventually ended knight's career in bloomington. hadn't seen it since it first aired, and it was still mesmerizing. reed was absolutely vilified by hoosier fans and many school administrators, even after a video tape proving him truthful surfaced. reed left iu, bounced around a little playing in europe, and then went out west, teaching/coaching hoops/golf at a small hs in california where he was happy and beloved, marrying w/2 little girls. but then he suffered a massive heart attack and died at age 36 back in '12. nationally his legacy was being the tipping point of ending a storied coach's tenure, but locally his legacy was how he affected kids by being a lot of things knight was not.

Knight has burnt some bridges that for certain__He was nowhere to be seen nor heard from as Coach K ends his coaching career.

[mscott59]

Apr 6, 2022 19:19:38 GMT -5 Mickey34jb said:

Apr 6, 2022 13:14:34 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

... while flipping thru channels eating lunch, just watched the last 90 minutes of 'the last days of knight' on espn-u, which originally aired in '18 I think. great piece done by robert abbott, who was working for cnn/si during the late 90s when stories began surfacing about the talented, turbulent coach abusing players, and one of them, neil reed, finally went on the record about bobby grabbing him by the neck during a practice, the reax inside/outside the iu community and the aftermath that eventually ended knight's career in bloomington. hadn't seen it since it first aired, and it was still mesmerizing. reed was absolutely vilified by hoosier fans and many school administrators, even after a video tape proving him truthful surfaced. reed left iu, bounced around a little playing in europe, and then went out west, teaching/coaching hoops/golf at a small hs in california where he was happy and beloved, marrying w/2 little girls. but then he suffered a massive heart attack and died at age 36 back in '12. nationally his legacy was being the tipping point of ending a storied coach's tenure, but locally his legacy was how he affected kids by being a lot of things knight was not.

Knight has burnt some bridges that for certain__He was nowhere to be seen nor heard from as Coach K ends his coaching career.

yeah, I wonder whose choice that was... knight is 81 but the last time I saw him when he returned to iu a couple years ago he looked much more frail. of course, coach k is 75 and thanks to back surgeries was obviously laboring just walking to/from the bench this season. health could be a factor, but certainly more likely is just the bad aura knight's career ended with, which coach k has avoided throughout his.

[Mickey34jb]

From Yahoo...WOW

Excerpt: Inside the breakup of Coach K and Bobby Knight's complicated relationship

Indiana coach Bobby Knight walked up to Duke special assistant Colonel Tom Rogers, his former officer representative at West Point, and handed him an envelope to give to Mike Krzyzewski. Inside was a clipping and a note that would represent the beginning of the end of the Knight-Krzyzewski relationship.

The Hoosiers were about to play the Blue Devils in the national semifinals in the Minneapolis Metrodome, where Krzyzewski was making his fifth consecutive trip to the Final Four, and his sixth in seven years. The last man to stop Coach K short of this point in the tournament was his West Point coach and mentor, Knight, who hadn’t reached this weekend since 1987, when the Hoosiers knocked out Duke in the Sweet 16.

The Knight-Krzyzewski dynamic was so much simpler then. Knight, the teacher, had proudly worn a “Go Duke” button around Dallas during the 1986 Final Four while serving as his student’s lead cheerleader. The following March, when they met for the first time, some close Coach K observers thought he was deferential to his former coach, to his team’s detriment. Knight had expressed his pride in Krzyzewski’s accomplishments and his dismay in having to face him in such an important game.

But by April 1992, Duke had surpassed Indiana as an elite program, and Krzyzewski had surpassed Knight in Final Four trips, 6–5 (though the Indiana coach held a 3–1 lead in national titles and had already been inducted into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame). Coach K was being widely portrayed as everything that was right about major college sports, and Knight, increasingly, as everything that was wrong about them.

Over the years Krzyzewski had explained to recruits, and to media members, that he was his own man, and published quotes from Coach K surfaced here and there that showed him carefully, and respectfully, trying to distinguish his approach from Knight’s. On a number of levels, Krzyzewski needed some separation from the Knight Way as he built his own legacy. And yet all of the pregame focus in Minneapolis would revolve around the two coaches, as illustrated in newspaper headlines such as “Krzyzewski Out from Under Shadow of Knight,” “Knight-Krzyzewski Matchup a Battle of Mirror Images,” and “The General, Coach K Behave Differently.”

Before their Saturday night game, the Duke and Indiana coaches offered no hint of a rupture in their relationship. Krzyzewski called the Blue Devils and Hoosiers his two favorite teams, and Knight said he shared that sentiment.

“But I don’t think I’m going to wear my Duke button to this one,” he quipped. Knight said that his former player “has a side that’s very loyal, very understanding. He’s a great friend to have because he’s going to tell you the truth.” Knight also emphasized that Krzyzewski had put his own program together, and that he would have had the same success at Duke “regardless if he would have played for me or not.”

Coach K called himself a good friend of Knight’s and promised, “We’ll be good friends after the game is over.”

One newspaper report said that Coach K had “privately bristled” over the constant media references to Knight’s enormous impact on his career as far back as 1987. “It was as if Mike owed his whole career to Coach Knight,” a Krzyzewski associate had told the Baltimore Sun. The paper also quoted Krzyzewski saying of Knight, “I can call him and talk to him as a friend, and I was privileged to learn a lot from him. But by now, I’ve figured out how to put together my own game plan. I don’t call my mother and ask her what to eat for dinner.”

It was unclear if Knight ever saw that story. One story that Knight most certainly did see before Duke-Indiana was a Final Four preview piece written by Sports Illustrated’s Curry Kirkpatrick that included this paragraph:

“In 1987 Indiana beat Duke in the Midwest Regional semifinals, a crucible that a friend of Krzyzewski’s describes as the ‘divorce’ between the two coaches, because Krzyzewski wanted so badly to eliminate the notion that he was nothing without Knight’s patronage. Since then Coach K has taken every opportunity to outline their many differences while still staying on Knight’s good side — wherever that is — undoubtedly a stickier task than teaching dozens of trophy makers how to spell his name.”

Krzyzewski wasn’t quoted as confirming what his anonymous friend claimed, but Knight took the piece as gospel. He was originally leafing through Sports Illustrated to find some tidbit that might help or motivate his players, only to accidentally stumble upon these 79 words that angered him. Knight clipped out the offending paragraph, wrote a note to Krzyzewski, and stuffed both inside an envelope before he boarded the Indiana bus for the ride to the Metrodome and his encounter with Coach K. Knight gave the envelope to Rogers before the game. The colonel would not give it to Krzyzewski until the Blue Devils and Hoosiers settled things on the floor.

After Duke fought off Indiana for an 81-78 victory, all that was left was the handshake between two titanic coaches. Krzyzewski marched purposefully toward the Indiana bench, then slowed down, extended his right hand and waited for the affectionate exchange of words that normally punctuate a spirited contest between old friends.

Only Knight did not break stride when grabbing and releasing Krzyzewski’s hand. It was a drive-by handshake, meant to send a clear and cold message.

Coach K said a few words as their hands met; the losing coach seemed not to say much of anything at all. Krzyzewski looked shaken as he walked away.

Knight attended the postgame news conference with a couple of players, fielded questions about one of his most bitter defeats, and then, while exiting the interview room, congratulated the Duke players waiting behind a curtain, Bobby Hurley and Christian Laettner, before making yet another decision on Krzyzewski. Mike was right in front of him, again, hoping this do-over would go better than the on-court drive-by. This time Knight walked right by him without saying a word or shaking his hand.

In his presser, a rattled Krzyzewski was asked about the conspicuous lack of warmth from Knight after the final horn sounded. “He just said, ‘Congratulations and good luck,’ ” the Duke coach said. “That was about all I expected.”

As instructed by Knight, Rogers gave the note to Krzyzewski, who all but buckled upon reading it. Yes, Coach K wanted some independence from his college coach. No, he did not want this fight. Krzyzewski never forgot how Knight treated him and his mother after his father died during his senior season at West Point. Coach K brought that up all the time with his friends. In his darkest hour, Krzyzewski had seen Knight’s considerable capacity for kindness. And now his old West Point coach was declaring war on him.

As much as Coach K wanted to downplay the whole thing, his pain was obvious. “I’ve never seen Coach K hurt by anything like that,” said his sports information director Mike Cragg.

Coach K had tears in his eyes and sure did not look like a man who had just advanced to the national championship game for a third straight year. When his wife Mickie asked what was wrong, Krzyzewski answered, “Knight,” and then told her about the note. Knight later said that he pointed out in the letter that he’d always had a great relationship with Krzyzewski, and that, in the event of a Duke victory over Indiana, he would be rooting hard for the Blue Devils to win it all.

But, no, the note didn’t read quite like a Christmas card. Knight wrote that if Krzyzewski wanted to sever their relationship, that would be easily arranged. “He wrote that you should remember how you f***ing got your job,” said one prominent friend of both men.

[daleko]

Speaking of old coaches, I'll drop some interesting ramblings here.

And Coach K almost made it into a very special group of two. NCAA BB Coaches who finished their coaching career w a NC. Trying to join John Wooden and Al McGuire. If you include all sports, add Buck Shaw '60 Eagles, Toe Blake '68 Canadians, Red Auerbach '68 Celtics, Bill Walsh '88 49ers, Tom Osborn '97 Nebraska and Scotty Bowman '02 Wings. I guess w the money being offered today, tough to walk away, on top. Be it a coach or a player.

Lost in most discussions of legendary coaches and characters and top 3 greatest coaches, after Wooden, is Adolf Rupp, who won 82% of his games coached, 6 final fours and 4 titles. Ran an innovating fast break/set offense and defense that would fit today, one of the first to use the 1-3-1 trap. Emphasising perfect repetition in practice, mercilessly berating them for any mistakes. And like Knight's style, I guess that wouldn't play well today. 

Sidebar: Highly superstitious, he carried a lucky buckeye to every game.

And was involved in probably the most pivotal NCAA game when his Ky team lost to the all Black Texas Western team  in '66.

[mscott59]

my first job in tv was in the massive zanesville ohio metroplex (there are currently 210 tv markets in the us; zanesville is #203-lol) in the early 80’s. knight has accompanied his old tosu coach, fred taylor at a benefit event (taylor was born in zanesville). I watched the 2 do a studio interview with our sports director and knight was brilliant, funny, caring (especially to taylor), and telling great stories about hoops/coaching etc. absolutely charming on camera and off. if you didn’t know his tyrant side you wouldn’t have believed he had one. his jekyll & hyde nature was just unreal.

Apr 7, 2022 9:36:21 GMT -5 Mickey34jb said:

From Yahoo...WOW

Excerpt: Inside the breakup of Coach K and Bobby Knight's complicated relationship

Indiana coach Bobby Knight walked up to Duke special assistant Colonel Tom Rogers, his former officer representative at West Point, and handed him an envelope to give to Mike Krzyzewski. Inside was a clipping and a note that would represent the beginning of the end of the Knight-Krzyzewski relationship.

The Hoosiers were about to play the Blue Devils in the national semifinals in the Minneapolis Metrodome, where Krzyzewski was making his fifth consecutive trip to the Final Four, and his sixth in seven years. The last man to stop Coach K short of this point in the tournament was his West Point coach and mentor, Knight, who hadn’t reached this weekend since 1987, when the Hoosiers knocked out Duke in the Sweet 16.

The Knight-Krzyzewski dynamic was so much simpler then. Knight, the teacher, had proudly worn a “Go Duke” button around Dallas during the 1986 Final Four while serving as his student’s lead cheerleader. The following March, when they met for the first time, some close Coach K observers thought he was deferential to his former coach, to his team’s detriment. Knight had expressed his pride in Krzyzewski’s accomplishments and his dismay in having to face him in such an important game.

But by April 1992, Duke had surpassed Indiana as an elite program, and Krzyzewski had surpassed Knight in Final Four trips, 6–5 (though the Indiana coach held a 3–1 lead in national titles and had already been inducted into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame). Coach K was being widely portrayed as everything that was right about major college sports, and Knight, increasingly, as everything that was wrong about them.

Over the years Krzyzewski had explained to recruits, and to media members, that he was his own man, and published quotes from Coach K surfaced here and there that showed him carefully, and respectfully, trying to distinguish his approach from Knight’s. On a number of levels, Krzyzewski needed some separation from the Knight Way as he built his own legacy. And yet all of the pregame focus in Minneapolis would revolve around the two coaches, as illustrated in newspaper headlines such as “Krzyzewski Out from Under Shadow of Knight,” “Knight-Krzyzewski Matchup a Battle of Mirror Images,” and “The General, Coach K Behave Differently.”

Before their Saturday night game, the Duke and Indiana coaches offered no hint of a rupture in their relationship. Krzyzewski called the Blue Devils and Hoosiers his two favorite teams, and Knight said he shared that sentiment.

“But I don’t think I’m going to wear my Duke button to this one,” he quipped. Knight said that his former player “has a side that’s very loyal, very understanding. He’s a great friend to have because he’s going to tell you the truth.” Knight also emphasized that Krzyzewski had put his own program together, and that he would have had the same success at Duke “regardless if he would have played for me or not.”

Coach K called himself a good friend of Knight’s and promised, “We’ll be good friends after the game is over.”

One newspaper report said that Coach K had “privately bristled” over the constant media references to Knight’s enormous impact on his career as far back as 1987. “It was as if Mike owed his whole career to Coach Knight,” a Krzyzewski associate had told the Baltimore Sun. The paper also quoted Krzyzewski saying of Knight, “I can call him and talk to him as a friend, and I was privileged to learn a lot from him. But by now, I’ve figured out how to put together my own game plan. I don’t call my mother and ask her what to eat for dinner.”

It was unclear if Knight ever saw that story. One story that Knight most certainly did see before Duke-Indiana was a Final Four preview piece written by Sports Illustrated’s Curry Kirkpatrick that included this paragraph:

“In 1987 Indiana beat Duke in the Midwest Regional semifinals, a crucible that a friend of Krzyzewski’s describes as the ‘divorce’ between the two coaches, because Krzyzewski wanted so badly to eliminate the notion that he was nothing without Knight’s patronage. Since then Coach K has taken every opportunity to outline their many differences while still staying on Knight’s good side — wherever that is — undoubtedly a stickier task than teaching dozens of trophy makers how to spell his name.”

Krzyzewski wasn’t quoted as confirming what his anonymous friend claimed, but Knight took the piece as gospel. He was originally leafing through Sports Illustrated to find some tidbit that might help or motivate his players, only to accidentally stumble upon these 79 words that angered him. Knight clipped out the offending paragraph, wrote a note to Krzyzewski, and stuffed both inside an envelope before he boarded the Indiana bus for the ride to the Metrodome and his encounter with Coach K. Knight gave the envelope to Rogers before the game. The colonel would not give it to Krzyzewski until the Blue Devils and Hoosiers settled things on the floor.

After Duke fought off Indiana for an 81-78 victory, all that was left was the handshake between two titanic coaches. Krzyzewski marched purposefully toward the Indiana bench, then slowed down, extended his right hand and waited for the affectionate exchange of words that normally punctuate a spirited contest between old friends.

Only Knight did not break stride when grabbing and releasing Krzyzewski’s hand. It was a drive-by handshake, meant to send a clear and cold message.

Coach K said a few words as their hands met; the losing coach seemed not to say much of anything at all. Krzyzewski looked shaken as he walked away.

Knight attended the postgame news conference with a couple of players, fielded questions about one of his most bitter defeats, and then, while exiting the interview room, congratulated the Duke players waiting behind a curtain, Bobby Hurley and Christian Laettner, before making yet another decision on Krzyzewski. Mike was right in front of him, again, hoping this do-over would go better than the on-court drive-by. This time Knight walked right by him without saying a word or shaking his hand.

In his presser, a rattled Krzyzewski was asked about the conspicuous lack of warmth from Knight after the final horn sounded. “He just said, ‘Congratulations and good luck,’ ” the Duke coach said. “That was about all I expected.”

As instructed by Knight, Rogers gave the note to Krzyzewski, who all but buckled upon reading it. Yes, Coach K wanted some independence from his college coach. No, he did not want this fight. Krzyzewski never forgot how Knight treated him and his mother after his father died during his senior season at West Point. Coach K brought that up all the time with his friends. In his darkest hour, Krzyzewski had seen Knight’s considerable capacity for kindness. And now his old West Point coach was declaring war on him.

As much as Coach K wanted to downplay the whole thing, his pain was obvious. “I’ve never seen Coach K hurt by anything like that,” said his sports information director Mike Cragg.

Coach K had tears in his eyes and sure did not look like a man who had just advanced to the national championship game for a third straight year. When his wife Mickie asked what was wrong, Krzyzewski answered, “Knight,” and then told her about the note. Knight later said that he pointed out in the letter that he’d always had a great relationship with Krzyzewski, and that, in the event of a Duke victory over Indiana, he would be rooting hard for the Blue Devils to win it all.

But, no, the note didn’t read quite like a Christmas card. Knight wrote that if Krzyzewski wanted to sever their relationship, that would be easily arranged. “He wrote that you should remember how you f***ing got your job,” said one prominent friend of both men.

[mscott59]

cool post. never heard the buckeye story re rupp but in appalachia and smoky mtn parts the buckeye/luck belief was a common one. minus the difference in racial outlooks, always thought rupp and woody had a lot of similarities in how they coached, outlook on prep and repetition, short fuses, state school prominence and success, etc. his uk teams played smart, fast and hard, and memorial coliseum where they played from ‘50-‘75 was one loud snake pit for visitors.

Apr 7, 2022 11:24:19 GMT -5 daleko said:

Speaking of old coaches, I'll drop some interesting ramblings here.

And Coach K almost made it into a very special group of two. NCAA BB Coaches who finished their coaching career w a NC. Trying to join John Wooden and Al McGuire. If you include all sports, add Buck Shaw '60 Eagles, Toe Blake '68 Canadians, Red Auerbach '68 Celtics, Bill Walsh '88 49ers, Tom Osborn '97 Nebraska and Scotty Bowman '02 Wings. I guess w the money being offered today, tough to walk away, on top. Be it a coach or a player.

Lost in most discussions of legendary coaches and characters and top 3 greatest coaches, after Wooden, is Adolf Rupp, who won 82% of his games coached, 6 final fours and 4 titles. Ran an innovating fast break/set offense and defense that would fit today, one of the first to use the 1-3-1 trap. Emphasising perfect repetition in practice, mercilessly berating them for any mistakes. And like Knight's style, I guess that wouldn't play well today. 

Sidebar: Highly superstitious, he carried a lucky buckeye to every game.

And was involved in probably the most pivotal NCAA game when his Ky team lost to the all Black Texas Western team  in '66.

[daleko]

Apr 7, 2022 12:31:50 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

cool post. never heard the buckeye story re rupp but in appalachia and smoky mtn parts the buckeye/luck belief was a common one. minus the difference in racial outlooks, always thought rupp and woody had a lot of similarities in how they coached, outlook on prep and repetition, short fuses, state school prominence and success, etc. his uk teams played smart, fast and hard, and memorial coliseum where they played from ‘50-‘75 was one loud snake pit for visitors.

Apr 7, 2022 11:24:19 GMT -5 daleko said:

Speaking of old coaches, I'll drop some interesting ramblings here.

And Coach K almost made it into a very special group of two. NCAA BB Coaches who finished their coaching career w a NC. Trying to join John Wooden and Al McGuire. If you include all sports, add Buck Shaw '60 Eagles, Toe Blake '68 Canadians, Red Auerbach '68 Celtics, Bill Walsh '88 49ers, Tom Osborn '97 Nebraska and Scotty Bowman '02 Wings. I guess w the money being offered today, tough to walk away, on top. Be it a coach or a player.

Lost in most discussions of legendary coaches and characters and top 3 greatest coaches, after Wooden, is Adolf Rupp, who won 82% of his games coached, 6 final fours and 4 titles. Ran an innovating fast break/set offense and defense that would fit today, one of the first to use the 1-3-1 trap. Emphasising perfect repetition in practice, mercilessly berating them for any mistakes. And like Knight's style, I guess that wouldn't play well today. 

Sidebar: Highly superstitious, he carried a lucky buckeye to every game.

And was involved in probably the most pivotal NCAA game when his Ky team lost to the all Black Texas Western team  in '66.

I know not enough about the man re his racial outlook, but he was born in KS, played at KS and coached and started a Black at Freeport, Ill HS. Perhaps UK wasn't the most progressive location for CBB. But he did try to recruit. Rupp hired assistant coach Neil Reed in 1960 to help recruit Black players and once asked the UK president for UK to leave the SEC so he could recruit black players. Rupp tried his best to sign in-state black players Wes Unseld and Butch Beard before both picked Louisville. FTWIW. 

[mscott59]

Apr 7, 2022 15:09:55 GMT -5 daleko said:

Apr 7, 2022 12:31:50 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

cool post. never heard the buckeye story re rupp but in appalachia and smoky mtn parts the buckeye/luck belief was a common one. minus the difference in racial outlooks, always thought rupp and woody had a lot of similarities in how they coached, outlook on prep and repetition, short fuses, state school prominence and success, etc. his uk teams played smart, fast and hard, and memorial coliseum where they played from ‘50-‘75 was one loud snake pit for visitors.

I know not enough about the man re his racial outlook, but he was born in KS, played at KS and coached and started a Black at Freeport, Ill HS. Perhaps UK wasn't the most progressive location for CBB. But he did try to recruit. Rupp hired assistant coach Neil Reed in 1960 to help recruit Black players and once asked the UK president for UK to leave the SEC so he could recruit black players. Rupp tried his best to sign in-state black players Wes Unseld and Butch Beard before both picked Louisville. FTWIW. 

no, uk was definitely not the most progressive spot for college hoops or many other things. my mom grew up there, in one of the hundreds of poor tiny mining towns in se kentucky. (dad grew up across the tug river in wv). who knows how much longer it would’ve taken had the cats beaten texas western, which certainly at least sped up the process.

[beuycek]

Apr 6, 2022 13:14:34 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

... while flipping thru channels eating lunch, just watched the last 90 minutes of 'the last days of knight' on espn-u, which originally aired in '18 I think. great piece done by robert abbott, who was working for cnn/si during the late 90s when stories began surfacing about the talented, turbulent coach abusing players, and one of them, neil reed, finally went on the record about bobby grabbing him by the neck during a practice, the reax inside/outside the iu community and the aftermath that eventually ended knight's career in bloomington. hadn't seen it since it first aired, and it was still mesmerizing. reed was absolutely vilified by hoosier fans and many school administrators, even after a video tape proving him truthful surfaced. reed left iu, bounced around a little playing in europe, and then went out west, teaching/coaching hoops/golf at a small hs in california where he was happy and beloved, marrying w/2 little girls. but then he suffered a massive heart attack and died at age 36 back in '12. nationally his legacy was being the tipping point of ending a storied coach's tenure, but locally his legacy was how he affected kids by being a lot of things knight was not.

I remember watching that a few years ago. Unbelievable to see how fearful he was of Knight, even after all those years.