Stages of Grief

[Panama pfRedd]

Nov 7, 2024 11:18:52 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:33:16 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

In a word…yes. The Dems forgot about their base a long time ago. And it has come back to bite them in the ass.

i don't disagree.  kamala wasn't chosen as biden's running mate b/c she was the most qualified, she was chosen b/c biden thought adding a woman would help him win.  and then when dems ignored bidens inability to campaign effectively until just a few months ago, everyone flocked to her rather than have a process where primary voters were able to express their interest.  

dems need someone who does more than just go on the view and show up to campaign events with beyonce.   they need someone the working class related to.  it seemed kamala was only trying to win over suburban housewives.  someone need to step up.  trump is atrocious but people like the combative, eff you energy that he brings.  people relate to him being angry all the time.  

You watch too much MSNBC.

[mscott59]

Nov 7, 2024 11:21:11 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:18:52 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i don't disagree.  kamala wasn't chosen as biden's running mate b/c she was the most qualified, she was chosen b/c biden thought adding a woman would help him win.  and then when dems ignored bidens inability to campaign effectively until just a few months ago, everyone flocked to her rather than have a process where primary voters were able to express their interest.  

dems need someone who does more than just go on the view and show up to campaign events with beyonce.   they need someone the working class related to.  it seemed kamala was only trying to win over suburban housewives.  someone need to step up.  trump is atrocious but people like the combative, eff you energy that he brings.  people relate to him being angry all the time.  

You watch too much MSNBC.

or maybe he just reads the posts on the aolcfboutcasts message board. lol

[Walter]

Nov 7, 2024 10:44:14 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:08:29 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

no.  i found trump to be far worse.  he's a truly awful person.  but the voters picked him.  so i have to accept it and the democratic party learns from this and does better.  

Had this very conversation with my (Democrat) father just yesterday. Even he agreed with me….the Democrat party leadership is way too smart to learn anything.

I have a different view. IMO, the GOP set up a political environment where they challenged the entire basis of the American Republic, and Democrats were forced to defend it against an authoritarian alternative. That set them as defenders of people they were historically skeptical about, such as the JE Hoovers, the CIA, and all that stuff we grew up suspicious of. In that respect, the Dems were forced to 'abandon' their base, in favor of defending the Republic as a whole.

Now we have a GOP that elected a guy who campaigned on 'draining the swamp', (code for installing Trump loyalists in favor of Constitutional loyalists), and teamed up with a group that produced Project 2025, a document that horrified a lot of people with its plan to effectively dismantle the American government and hand it over to one man. Now Trump has two paths he can follow: 1) renege on most everything his crowds were cheering for, or 2) embrace P2025 and the goals that redhats yearn to see, and start the process detailed within it.

Which do you think he will do?

[snap infraction]

Nov 7, 2024 11:43:09 GMT -5 Walter said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:44:14 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Had this very conversation with my (Democrat) father just yesterday. Even he agreed with me….the Democrat party leadership is way too smart to learn anything.

I have a different view. IMO, the GOP set up a political environment where they challenged the entire basis of the American Republic, and Democrats were forced to defend it against an authoritarian alternative. That set them as defenders of people they were historically skeptical about, such as the JE Hoovers, the CIA, and all that stuff we grew up suspicious of. In that respect, the Dems were forced to 'abandon' their base, in favor of defending the Republic as a whole.

Now we have a GOP that elected a guy who campaigned on 'draining the swamp', (code for installing Trump loyalists in favor of Constitutional loyalists), and teamed up with a group that produced Project 2025, a document that horrified a lot of people with its plan to effectively dismantle the American government and hand it over to one man. Now Trump has two paths he can follow: 1) renege on most everything his crowds were cheering for, or 2) embrace P2025 and the goals that redhats yearn to see, and start the process detailed within it.

Which do you think he will do?

i think he's going to be a disaster.   

but the campaign message of "vote for me b/c the other guy wants to end democracy and end abortions" was not a winning campaign message.  this appealed to me but not to others.  people wanted to hear a different message for various reasons.  

[mscott59]

Nov 7, 2024 10:33:16 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Nov 7, 2024 9:44:49 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i think trump has a certain machismo quality that younger men found appealing.  you can see it with joe rogan and other internet personalities that younger men listen to.  and i do think a woman candidate has more difficult obstacles to overcome than a male candidate.   but while kamala is an ok politician but she wasn't the unique talent that was going to shatter the glass ceiling.  

this is a time for self-reflection.  we yell and yell about all of trumps flaws.  and he has a ton.  but yelling about trumps flaws clearly is not a winning campaign message.  you need to also connect with voters as well.  kamala didn't.   dems need to find someone who can.  

In a word…yes. The Dems forgot about their base a long time ago. And it has come back to bite them in the ass.

imho I think the results of this election, and the massive trends to the right in so many states, should make democrats try to re-examine who makes up their base. it used to be the large tent made up of disparate groups who messily and chaotically fought amongst themselves, but were separate from the much smaller gop. this election proved that trump's tent has become the 21st century version of that large tent, minus the fighting amongst themselves and the chaos coming from their leader's words/style instead of the masses.

had a couple random conversations this summer w/a black man here in central ohio who ran his own repair shop, and a latino who owned a landscaping company. was mildly surprised that both asked me who I was voting for (this was right after the trump/biden debate, in which I responded that I was searching for a 3rd option), and was shocked w/not only the passion they had for trump, but that both were not just 100% behind immigration as the major issue but 100% behind trump's deportation push. the stats showing how minority men have really fueled the growth in trump's support certainly echoes that.

[Walter]

Nov 7, 2024 11:52:26 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:43:09 GMT -5 Walter said:

I have a different view. IMO, the GOP set up a political environment where they challenged the entire basis of the American Republic, and Democrats were forced to defend it against an authoritarian alternative. That set them as defenders of people they were historically skeptical about, such as the JE Hoovers, the CIA, and all that stuff we grew up suspicious of. In that respect, the Dems were forced to 'abandon' their base, in favor of defending the Republic as a whole.

Now we have a GOP that elected a guy who campaigned on 'draining the swamp', (code for installing Trump loyalists in favor of Constitutional loyalists), and teamed up with a group that produced Project 2025, a document that horrified a lot of people with its plan to effectively dismantle the American government and hand it over to one man. Now Trump has two paths he can follow: 1) renege on most everything his crowds were cheering for, or 2) embrace P2025 and the goals that redhats yearn to see, and start the process detailed within it.

Which do you think he will do?

i think he's going to be a disaster.   

but the campaign message of "vote for me b/c the other guy wants to end democracy and end abortions" was not a winning campaign message.  this appealed to me but not to others.  people wanted to hear a different message for various reasons.  

What is sad is that a great many in this country have shown that are ready to accept and embrace the notion of an authoritarian who tramples the rule of law to achieve a partisan goal.
The nation voted in favor of the idea. If campaigning that it's a bad idea that won't end well doesn't win the day, we're in some deep doo-doo...

Buckle up. It's going to be a very dark 4 years.

[snap infraction]

Nov 7, 2024 12:00:20 GMT -5 Walter said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:52:26 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

i think he's going to be a disaster.   

but the campaign message of "vote for me b/c the other guy wants to end democracy and end abortions" was not a winning campaign message.  this appealed to me but not to others.  people wanted to hear a different message for various reasons.  

What is sad is that a great many in this country have shown that are ready to accept and embrace the notion of an authoritarian who tramples the rule of law to achieve a partisan goal.
The nation voted in favor of the idea. If campaigning that it's a bad idea that won't end well doesn't win the day, we're in some deep doo-doo...

Buckle up. It's going to be a very dark 4 years.

i'm just saying how it is.  what me and you worry about is different than what others worry about.  my wife voted for kamala but to her, the biggest issue was guns in school.  she didn't care about 1/6 at all.  my sister voted for trump b/c she thinks trump is better for israel.  everyone is different.  

i think dems are guilty of assuming they know what concerns people.  clearly they were wrong.   voters looked at kamala, listened to her and determined trump would do a better job.  i just shrug my shoulders and just hope things work out.

[Panama pfRedd]

Nov 7, 2024 11:52:26 GMT -5 snap infraction said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:43:09 GMT -5 Walter said:

I have a different view. IMO, the GOP set up a political environment where they challenged the entire basis of the American Republic, and Democrats were forced to defend it against an authoritarian alternative. That set them as defenders of people they were historically skeptical about, such as the JE Hoovers, the CIA, and all that stuff we grew up suspicious of. In that respect, the Dems were forced to 'abandon' their base, in favor of defending the Republic as a whole.

Now we have a GOP that elected a guy who campaigned on 'draining the swamp', (code for installing Trump loyalists in favor of Constitutional loyalists), and teamed up with a group that produced Project 2025, a document that horrified a lot of people with its plan to effectively dismantle the American government and hand it over to one man. Now Trump has two paths he can follow: 1) renege on most everything his crowds were cheering for, or 2) embrace P2025 and the goals that redhats yearn to see, and start the process detailed within it.

Which do you think he will do?

i think he's going to be a disaster.   

but the campaign message of "vote for me b/c the other guy wants to end democracy and end abortions" was not a winning campaign message.  this appealed to me but not to others.  people wanted to hear a different message for various reasons.  

Of course you do. He's Hitler and a fascist after all.

[oujour76]

Nov 7, 2024 11:52:52 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:33:16 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

In a word…yes. The Dems forgot about their base a long time ago. And it has come back to bite them in the ass.

imho I think the results of this election, and the massive trends to the right in so many states, should make democrats try to re-examine who makes up their base. it used to be the large tent made up of disparate groups who messily and chaotically fought amongst themselves, but were separate from the much smaller gop. this election proved that trump's tent has become the 21st century version of that large tent, minus the fighting amongst themselves and the chaos coming from their leader's words/style instead of the masses.

had a couple random conversations this summer w/a black man here in central ohio who ran his own repair shop, and a latino who owned a landscaping company. was mildly surprised that both asked me who I was voting for (this was right after the trump/biden debate, in which I responded that I was searching for a 3rd option), and was shocked w/not only the passion they had for trump, but that both were not just 100% behind immigration as the major issue but 100% behind trump's deportation push. the stats showing how minority men have really fueled the growth in trump's support certainly echoes that.

Why did you find that surprising?

[mscott59]

Nov 7, 2024 12:34:54 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Nov 7, 2024 11:52:52 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

imho I think the results of this election, and the massive trends to the right in so many states, should make democrats try to re-examine who makes up their base. it used to be the large tent made up of disparate groups who messily and chaotically fought amongst themselves, but were separate from the much smaller gop. this election proved that trump's tent has become the 21st century version of that large tent, minus the fighting amongst themselves and the chaos coming from their leader's words/style instead of the masses.

had a couple random conversations this summer w/a black man here in central ohio who ran his own repair shop, and a latino who owned a landscaping company. was mildly surprised that both asked me who I was voting for (this was right after the trump/biden debate, in which I responded that I was searching for a 3rd option), and was shocked w/not only the passion they had for trump, but that both were not just 100% behind immigration as the major issue but 100% behind trump's deportation push. the stats showing how minority men have really fueled the growth in trump's support certainly echoes that.

Why did you find that surprising?

it was the passion in which they supported the deportation question w/o me even bringing it up that I didn't expect. I asked the landscaping guy about his work teams, sharing that in my experience the people I knew in that business had a lot of immigrant labor. my 2 brothers in law who have been in homebuilding (1 still is) have contractors whose subs are also made up of many immigrant workers. the owner told me that he'd used some immigrant labor a few yrs ago (not lately), but his issue was that the perception of 'just hiring a bunch of illegals' (his words) for teams made new business conversations tilt more to a commodity discussion instead of quality of work.

[oujour76]

Nov 7, 2024 12:55:57 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

Nov 7, 2024 12:34:54 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Why did you find that surprising?

it was the passion in which they supported the deportation question w/o me even bringing it up that I didn't expect. I asked the landscaping guy about his work teams, sharing that in my experience the people I knew in that business had a lot of immigrant labor. my 2 brothers in law who have been in homebuilding (1 still is) have contractors whose subs are also made up of many immigrant workers. the owner told me that he'd used some immigrant labor a few yrs ago (not lately), but his issue was that the perception of 'just hiring a bunch of illegals' (his words) for teams made new business conversations tilt more to a commodity discussion instead of quality of work.

FWIW….In my experience, most Hispanics (regardless of where they come from) have little tolerance for illegal immigration.

[mscott59]

Nov 7, 2024 16:02:14 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Nov 7, 2024 12:55:57 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

it was the passion in which they supported the deportation question w/o me even bringing it up that I didn't expect. I asked the landscaping guy about his work teams, sharing that in my experience the people I knew in that business had a lot of immigrant labor. my 2 brothers in law who have been in homebuilding (1 still is) have contractors whose subs are also made up of many immigrant workers. the owner told me that he'd used some immigrant labor a few yrs ago (not lately), but his issue was that the perception of 'just hiring a bunch of illegals' (his words) for teams made new business conversations tilt more to a commodity discussion instead of quality of work.

FWIW….In my experience, most Hispanics (regardless of where they come from) have little tolerance for illegal immigration.

a friend of mine years ago used to work for a legal firm who helped hispanics (his parents were mexican) get green cards/work visas etc. his parents were migrant workers who come up to nw ohio annually to work for campbell's in the produce fields. the legal business received lots of funding from the farming, construction, fast food/restaurant, landscaping and hospitality industries who increasingly needed that population for minimum/low paying jobs. he would tell me how common it was for them to be so desperate to find legal avenues to stay in the us. I also know there's been many many businesses who would do the same thing you used to say cfb coaches did when it came to the 'occasional' gray areas of recruiting kids to their school; isolate themselves away from any negatives in the path to getting them to be a part of their program (or in this case, get hired by contractors and subs).

[Walter]

Nov 7, 2024 16:02:14 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Nov 7, 2024 12:55:57 GMT -5 mscott59 said:

it was the passion in which they supported the deportation question w/o me even bringing it up that I didn't expect. I asked the landscaping guy about his work teams, sharing that in my experience the people I knew in that business had a lot of immigrant labor. my 2 brothers in law who have been in homebuilding (1 still is) have contractors whose subs are also made up of many immigrant workers. the owner told me that he'd used some immigrant labor a few yrs ago (not lately), but his issue was that the perception of 'just hiring a bunch of illegals' (his words) for teams made new business conversations tilt more to a commodity discussion instead of quality of work.

FWIW….In my experience, most Hispanics (regardless of where they come from) have little tolerance for illegal immigration.

I don't dispute that, but it strikes me as a bit odd, especially when los abuelos, who made the trek north to give them the chance to lack that tolerance, could be watching Univision in the next room.