Fervor for the Second Amendment Rooted in Slave Patrols

[Panama pfRedd]

Oct 6, 2022 11:24:40 GMT -5 daleko said:

Oct 6, 2022 10:18:18 GMT -5 Walter said:

You asked for some historical basis. I provided some. You refuse to consider it. <shrug>
Who's playing Willie-9/11 again?

Still a byproduct. No different than animals will die when shot, intruders will die when shot, Brits will die, if they return as combatants, when shot, Feds will die if they overreach the States, when shot. No factual discussion that it was under consideration, when accepted as a foundational principle.

Two shots to the face, yes yes?

[dilligaf]

Oct 5, 2022 17:56:02 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 5, 2022 14:58:57 GMT -5 daleko said:

Again, no historical evidence and you want me to explain why something wasn't. 

I gave you concrete things that happened and asked you why it happened. That ain't something that wasn't.
Here's another we discussed earlier:

Dunmore's Proclamation is a historical document signed on November 7, 1775, by John Murray, 4th Earl of Dunmore, royal governor of the British Colony of Virginia. The proclamation declared martial law[1] and promised freedom for slaves of American revolutionaries who left their owners and joined the royal forces, becoming Black Loyalists. Most relevant historians agree that the proclamation was chiefly designed for practical and militaristic reasons rather than moral reasons, such as humanitarianism.[2][3]

Formally proclaimed on November 15, its publication prompted between 800 and 2000 slaves (from both patriot and loyalist owners) to run away and enlist with Dunmore.

It also raised a furor among Virginia's slave-owning elites (again of both political persuasions), to whom the possibility of a slave rebellion was a major fear.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmore%27s_Proclamation

If a slave rebellion was a 'major fear', then it makes sense to ensure that a new Constitution contained language that aided in combatting such a future rebellion. The 2nd A did just that.

Slavery no longer exists (except for those people who obey Demonrats), but the Second Amendment DOES.

Now tell the class why Demonrats are so scared of American citizens who own guns.  99% of America's gun owners will never use their guns to commit crimes.   So what is the problem?

[Walter]

Oct 7, 2022 10:38:35 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Oct 5, 2022 17:56:02 GMT -5 Walter said:

I gave you concrete things that happened and asked you why it happened. That ain't something that wasn't.
Here's another we discussed earlier:

Dunmore's Proclamation is a historical document signed on November 7, 1775, by John Murray, 4th Earl of Dunmore, royal governor of the British Colony of Virginia. The proclamation declared martial law[1] and promised freedom for slaves of American revolutionaries who left their owners and joined the royal forces, becoming Black Loyalists. Most relevant historians agree that the proclamation was chiefly designed for practical and militaristic reasons rather than moral reasons, such as humanitarianism.[2][3]

Formally proclaimed on November 15, its publication prompted between 800 and 2000 slaves (from both patriot and loyalist owners) to run away and enlist with Dunmore.

It also raised a furor among Virginia's slave-owning elites (again of both political persuasions), to whom the possibility of a slave rebellion was a major fear.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmore%27s_Proclamation

If a slave rebellion was a 'major fear', then it makes sense to ensure that a new Constitution contained language that aided in combatting such a future rebellion. The 2nd A did just that.

Slavery no longer exists (except for those people who obey Demonrats), but the Second Amendment DOES.

Now tell the class why Demonrats are so scared of American citizens who own guns.  99% of America's gun owners will never use their guns to commit crimes.   So what is the problem?

Most all formal state militias don't exist anymore either, so tell us why the right to bear arms is constitutionally necessary.

[dilligaf]

Oct 7, 2022 10:42:26 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 7, 2022 10:38:35 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Slavery no longer exists (except for those people who obey Demonrats), but the Second Amendment DOES.

Now tell the class why Demonrats are so scared of American citizens who own guns.  99% of America's gun owners will never use their guns to commit crimes.   So what is the problem?

Most all formal state militias don't exist anymore either, so tell us why the right to bear arms is constitutionally necessary.

Because the Second Amendment addresses INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, comrade.
The right to bear arms was not created by the Constitution.  That right is simply GUARANTEED by 2A.

[daleko]

Oct 7, 2022 10:42:26 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 7, 2022 10:38:35 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Most all formal state militias don't exist anymore either, so tell us why the right to bear arms is constitutionally necessary.

Sidebar not meant to answer your Q: Interesting. Is that what this is all about? Creating a grassroots movement, in this case, creating emotional baggage to what happened in 1791 and before, to start the process of amending the 2nd?  

"Fervor for the Second Amendment Rooted in Slave Patrols?" You've already agreed that Willie's Post Title is BS. All we were discussing is whether slavery had some very minor part or not. And while we disagree, who cares 200 + yrs later? Other than some chatter here. 

For me, your Q is moot. Necessary or not, there it is. You most certainly know the process to change it. Get to it, if you feel that it should be amended.

[oujour76]

Oct 7, 2022 10:42:26 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 7, 2022 10:38:35 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Slavery no longer exists (except for those people who obey Demonrats), but the Second Amendment DOES.

Now tell the class why Demonrats are so scared of American citizens who own guns.  99% of America's gun owners will never use their guns to commit crimes.   So what is the problem?

Most all formal state militias don't exist anymore either, so tell us why the right to bear arms is constitutionally necessary.

You have it backwards.

[Walter]

Oct 7, 2022 10:49:37 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Oct 7, 2022 10:42:26 GMT -5 Walter said:

Most all formal state militias don't exist anymore either, so tell us why the right to bear arms is constitutionally necessary.

Because the Second Amendment addresses INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, comrade.
The right to bear arms was not created by the Constitution.  That right is simply GUARANTEED by 2A.

The 2nd A preserves the right to bear arms for a specified constitutional purpose. For use by a 'well-regulated militia', not blowing away your girlfriend after she breaks up with you.
The language in the Constitution is as clear as day.
We don't have militias any longer, so the entire reason for the 2nd A has gone away.

This is an instance where originalists conveniently stop being originalists.
Subsequent SCOTUS rulings have affirmed the personal right to bear arms notwithstanding clear language casting doubt about that right.
But curiously, (or not), originalists don't want to go there.

[dilligaf]

Oct 7, 2022 12:43:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 7, 2022 10:49:37 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Because the Second Amendment addresses INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, comrade.
The right to bear arms was not created by the Constitution.  That right is simply GUARANTEED by 2A.

The 2nd A preserves the right to bear arms for a specified constitutional purpose. For use by a 'well-regulated militia', not blowing away your girlfriend after she breaks up with you.
The language in the Constitution is as clear as day.
We don't have militias any longer, so the entire reason for the 2nd A has gone away.

This is an instance where originalists conveniently stop being originalists.
Subsequent SCOTUS rulings have affirmed the personal right to bear arms notwithstanding clear language casting doubt about that right.
But curiously, (or not), originalists don't want to go there.

You are totally wrong.
And as I have patiently explained to you (like talking to a 3 year old), 99% or more of legal gun owners will NEVER use their guns to commit crimes.
Legal gun owners WILL use their guns for sport, and for self-defense, as is their RIGHT.
Legal gun owners may simply collect guns, and NEVER Fire a single one of them.

[Walter]

Oct 7, 2022 19:44:17 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Oct 7, 2022 12:43:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

The 2nd A preserves the right to bear arms for a specified constitutional purpose. For use by a 'well-regulated militia', not blowing away your girlfriend after she breaks up with you.
The language in the Constitution is as clear as day.
We don't have militias any longer, so the entire reason for the 2nd A has gone away.

This is an instance where originalists conveniently stop being originalists.
Subsequent SCOTUS rulings have affirmed the personal right to bear arms notwithstanding clear language casting doubt about that right.
But curiously, (or not), originalists don't want to go there.

You are totally wrong.
And as I have patiently explained to you (like talking to a 3 year old), 99% or more of legal gun owners will NEVER use their guns to commit crimes.
Legal gun owners WILL use their guns for sport, and for self-defense, as is their RIGHT.
Legal gun owners may simply collect guns, and NEVER Fire a single one of them.

As many as 40% of guns used in crimes were legally procured, either bought via private party transaction, gun shows, or gifted from friends and relatives.

[oujour76]

Oct 8, 2022 1:02:18 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 7, 2022 19:44:17 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

You are totally wrong.
And as I have patiently explained to you (like talking to a 3 year old), 99% or more of legal gun owners will NEVER use their guns to commit crimes.
Legal gun owners WILL use their guns for sport, and for self-defense, as is their RIGHT.
Legal gun owners may simply collect guns, and NEVER Fire a single one of them.

As many as 40% of guns used in crimes were legally procured, either bought via private party transaction, gun shows, or gifted from friends and relatives.

In English, what does that mean?

[dilligaf]

Oct 8, 2022 1:02:18 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 7, 2022 19:44:17 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

You are totally wrong.
And as I have patiently explained to you (like talking to a 3 year old), 99% or more of legal gun owners will NEVER use their guns to commit crimes.
Legal gun owners WILL use their guns for sport, and for self-defense, as is their RIGHT.
Legal gun owners may simply collect guns, and NEVER Fire a single one of them.

As many as 40% of guns used in crimes were legally procured, either bought via private party transaction, gun shows, or gifted from friends and relatives.

Where is your data?
I know a LOT of people who own guns, and none of them have ever been caught committing a crime with a gun.

I also know that the many guns I took off of criminals were either STOLEN outright, or "borrowed" from the legal owner without permission..

If someone uses a gun in a crime, and that gun is never recovered, as many of them are, what makes you think they were legally purchased?

The Mississippi River is full of crime guns that will never be recovered.


I am not a career criminal, but let's say I get really pissed and kill someone.   I am NOW a criminal, and do you think I am going to hang on to the murder weapon?

How many guns are used in self-defense situations that are never reported? 

Sorry, but you do NOT punish 99% of American gun owners for the actions of a small fraction, and for the actions of criminals who NEVER legally owned a gun.

That's not how democracy works, comrade.

[dilligaf]

Oct 8, 2022 7:19:42 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Oct 8, 2022 1:02:18 GMT -5 Walter said:

As many as 40% of guns used in crimes were legally procured, either bought via private party transaction, gun shows, or gifted from friends and relatives.

In English, what does that mean?

We need Kameltoe Harris to explain it.

The passage of time is important, since time passes, and it is important to pass time in a way that males time pass in an important manner.

[Walter]

Oct 8, 2022 8:34:21 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Oct 8, 2022 1:02:18 GMT -5 Walter said:

As many as 40% of guns used in crimes were legally procured, either bought via private party transaction, gun shows, or gifted from friends and relatives.

Where is your data?
I know a LOT of people who own guns, and none of them have ever been caught committing a crime with a gun.

I also know that the many guns I took off of criminals were either STOLEN outright, or "borrowed" from the legal owner without permission..

If someone uses a gun in a crime, and that gun is never recovered, as many of them are, what makes you think they were legally purchased?

The Mississippi River is full of crime guns that will never be recovered.


I am not a career criminal, but let's say I get really pissed and kill someone.   I am NOW a criminal, and do you think I am going to hang on to the murder weapon?

How many guns are used in self-defense situations that are never reported? 

Sorry, but you do NOT punish 99% of American gun owners for the actions of a small fraction, and for the actions of criminals who NEVER legally owned a gun.

That's not how democracy works, comrade.

Where is my data?
Where is yours?
Show us proof that 99% of gun owners aren't (or weren't) criminals prior to becoming one.

[dilligaf]

Oct 8, 2022 8:40:57 GMT -5 Walter said:

Oct 8, 2022 8:34:21 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Where is your data?
I know a LOT of people who own guns, and none of them have ever been caught committing a crime with a gun.

I also know that the many guns I took off of criminals were either STOLEN outright, or "borrowed" from the legal owner without permission..

If someone uses a gun in a crime, and that gun is never recovered, as many of them are, what makes you think they were legally purchased?

The Mississippi River is full of crime guns that will never be recovered.


I am not a career criminal, but let's say I get really pissed and kill someone.   I am NOW a criminal, and do you think I am going to hang on to the murder weapon?

How many guns are used in self-defense situations that are never reported? 

Sorry, but you do NOT punish 99% of American gun owners for the actions of a small fraction, and for the actions of criminals who NEVER legally owned a gun.

That's not how democracy works, comrade.

Where is my data?
Where is yours?
Show us proof that 99% of gun owners aren't (or weren't) criminals prior to becoming one.

Look at the number of legal gun owners in the U.S.
Look at the number of people who commit crimes with guns they own legally.

Let me know what your looking reveals.

I get it that you want to disarm Americans so that Demonrats can more easily control them, but that is NOT going to happen.
Sorry.

[Walter]

Oct 8, 2022 8:45:05 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Oct 8, 2022 8:40:57 GMT -5 Walter said:

Where is my data?
Where is yours?
Show us proof that 99% of gun owners aren't (or weren't) criminals prior to becoming one.

Look at the number of legal gun owners in the U.S.
Look at the number of people who commit crimes with guns they own legally.

Let me know what your looking reveals.

I get it that you want to disarm Americans so that Demonrats can more easily control them, but that is NOT going to happen.
Sorry.

The number is additive. A gun owner could possess a gun for 40 years and then become a criminal, so add up all the crimes during that period and let us know what you find.