A Spite Free Discussion About Donald Trump

[drjensen]

I think the majority of DC is corrupt. There is so much bureaucracy in DC it would be virtually impossible for one administration to totally clean house for the next. It actually exists at whatever level of government you would like to address. I was the GM of a very large truck dealership in Iowa for several years. We used to bid trucks from pickups to dump truck/snow removal trucks, to semi tractors for the State. The specifications for the majority of these vehicles were written probably in the 60's or 70's with some newer ones as the industry evolved. I met regularly with the "engineers" in the Iowa Dept. of Transportation, who were responsible for these purchases and specifications. I asked them to invite representatives from the different dealerships in state who submitted bids and we could update their specs. By inviting all the franchises, none would have a leg up on the other. This was all put in place and they were receptive to the idea and everyone I knew in our industry was elated that this was going to happen. About two weeks before we were all getting together to rewrite these specifications, we were notified the State had decided against it. I had gotten to know one of the engineers rather well over the years and I called him up to find out what happened. He told me, "you didn't hear this from me" but many of the State employees did not want to see this happen. Basically, don't rock the boat. If we make a mistake and I am found to be responsible, it might cost me my job!!! Job security for them was better than making positive changes. The same thing happens in DC, do not think for one minute that even a smidgeon of the bureaucracy in DC changes because there is a new sheriff in town. DC does not like the boat rocked!!!! Let me keep my high paying, excellent benefit, secure job, with great retirement with chances for advancement and I'll just keep doing what everyone in DC has been doing for decades, basically ripping off the American taxpayer. Trump wanted to drain the swamp and many people who should be held accountable and removed are the supervisors/administrators, and remember that old saying "shit flows downhill". 

[oujour76]

Jan 16, 2021 15:53:55 GMT -5 drjensen said:

Jan 14, 2021 7:39:20 GMT -5 arkon said:

Can any of y'all Trump supporters eXplain the fascination to me?
Seriously, I don't get it. It seems everyone is either rabidly for him or vehemently against him. I'm the latter, and I honestly can't understand how or why anyone would support him, especially after 4 years of seeing him in action.

And I promise to be civil! 👍

Finally, a post on here that contains substance and civility. But, after reading all of them, our illustrious administrator muddied up the waters as is his forte' and took the civility out of his response. 
As for me, I would say that not all people are necessarily vehemently for him or against him although you are correct in stating there are those who fall into those categories. 
I support him, but not vehemently. During the election of 2016 the GOP failed to nominate a candidate that could solidify it's base. He was and is an outsider, and although he is brash and arrogant, the 'truths' he tells far outweigh his exaggerations. I use the word exaggeration rather than "lie" because I am amused by the liberal faction getting caught up in mistruths and saying they merely "misspoke." I supported him back then because of what he promised the American people. When Obama ran the first time he promised to get rid of DC lobbyists and make his administration transparent. He lied. He continued to lie, but he got by with it because no one wanted to "offend" our first non-white president and therefore be called a racist. Political correctness ran amuck!!! I do not recall ever meeting or researching a politician who doesn't lie. From local small town government all the way to the top of DC. Trump told us he would expose the corruption, he would drain the swamp, and possibly that more than anything secured my vote. We have all listened to and watched politicians who have betrayed America for their own gain. Trump screwed up this time, and he screwed up badly, this is clearly evident in his loss to Biden/Harris, two very poor candidates secured by the Democrats. The GOP needs candidates like Nikki Haley and Trey Gowdy to come to leadership. Washington does need cleaned up. However, I am pretty sure that if the corruption in DC was cleaned up in one big fell swoop, our country would greatly suffer. As bad as these guys are they do do some good and to kick their collective asses out would create national and international turmoil. Saddam Hussein was hated by a major portion of the Iranian people, however, he was also admired by many. Corrupt as he was, he maintained a certain "order" with his rule and most people will accept that and go on with their daily lives knowing full well that if the corruption does affect me too much, I can live with it.
Biden is going to be our next president. I will learn to live with that, I survived through 8 years of Obama. It strikes me as odd that people were not upset with Biden when he stated he would select a woman of color to be his running mate. If Trump would have made that statement, the liberals would be screaming "racism". Whomever is selected for a leadership role should never be held to their qualifications based on their race, gender, or religion. I have always been a bit puzzled as to when a coaching position opens in the NCAA or NFL, race becomes an issue. I think the best guy/girl should be hired, regardless of race. The percentage of players of one race or the other does not seem to come into play when we are discussing the players themselves. 
Back to Trump; I have questioned people I know as to what it is they don't like about him. The answers I get usually have no validity or IMO would not disqualify him. I know men who messed around with a lot of women, single and married, who chastised him for being a player. I know women who expressed shock about Trump who, slept with every jock on the football team. People are fickle. Whether it is Trump or Biden or whoever, wouldn't it be refreshing to all of us if we could actually informed of the actual truth? As far as I know there is no network or news agency that is totally non-biased and gives us the facts. Do you believe there is no corruption in voting? Whether or not it caused a difference in the last election is now irrelevant to that election. There is corruption, as much of it as possible, should be stopped. 
I also believe something should be done about social media, again we are not being fed the truth, we are being fed whatever information the provider wants us to believe. 
As for fascination Akron, I don't think it was fascination, I think a lot of people who get up everyday, pack their lunch, head off to work, pay their taxes, and try to live an ordinary life, were just tired of the crap in Washington DC. and decided to give Trump their vote. If he had pulled in his horns, stayed off Twitter, and refrained from calling his adversaries child-like nicknames, he would have won hands down. If I am still around, 2024 is going to be really interesting. For me, I hope Biden lasts that long. 
All this, and if the Democrats had ran someone other than Hillary who had legitimate substance, Trump would not have won. 

Damn, Doc...you sound like a right wing look! 😂 Damn good recap of how Trump got elected in the first place. And spot on about if he had kept his mouth shut for just a little bit, he would have easily been re-elected.

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 17:52:21 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jan 16, 2021 15:53:55 GMT -5 drjensen said:

Finally, a post on here that contains substance and civility. But, after reading all of them, our illustrious administrator muddied up the waters as is his forte' and took the civility out of his response. 
As for me, I would say that not all people are necessarily vehemently for him or against him although you are correct in stating there are those who fall into those categories. 
I support him, but not vehemently. During the election of 2016 the GOP failed to nominate a candidate that could solidify it's base. He was and is an outsider, and although he is brash and arrogant, the 'truths' he tells far outweigh his exaggerations. I use the word exaggeration rather than "lie" because I am amused by the liberal faction getting caught up in mistruths and saying they merely "misspoke." I supported him back then because of what he promised the American people. When Obama ran the first time he promised to get rid of DC lobbyists and make his administration transparent. He lied. He continued to lie, but he got by with it because no one wanted to "offend" our first non-white president and therefore be called a racist. Political correctness ran amuck!!! I do not recall ever meeting or researching a politician who doesn't lie. From local small town government all the way to the top of DC. Trump told us he would expose the corruption, he would drain the swamp, and possibly that more than anything secured my vote. We have all listened to and watched politicians who have betrayed America for their own gain. Trump screwed up this time, and he screwed up badly, this is clearly evident in his loss to Biden/Harris, two very poor candidates secured by the Democrats. The GOP needs candidates like Nikki Haley and Trey Gowdy to come to leadership. Washington does need cleaned up. However, I am pretty sure that if the corruption in DC was cleaned up in one big fell swoop, our country would greatly suffer. As bad as these guys are they do do some good and to kick their collective asses out would create national and international turmoil. Saddam Hussein was hated by a major portion of the Iranian people, however, he was also admired by many. Corrupt as he was, he maintained a certain "order" with his rule and most people will accept that and go on with their daily lives knowing full well that if the corruption does affect me too much, I can live with it.
Biden is going to be our next president. I will learn to live with that, I survived through 8 years of Obama. It strikes me as odd that people were not upset with Biden when he stated he would select a woman of color to be his running mate. If Trump would have made that statement, the liberals would be screaming "racism". Whomever is selected for a leadership role should never be held to their qualifications based on their race, gender, or religion. I have always been a bit puzzled as to when a coaching position opens in the NCAA or NFL, race becomes an issue. I think the best guy/girl should be hired, regardless of race. The percentage of players of one race or the other does not seem to come into play when we are discussing the players themselves. 
Back to Trump; I have questioned people I know as to what it is they don't like about him. The answers I get usually have no validity or IMO would not disqualify him. I know men who messed around with a lot of women, single and married, who chastised him for being a player. I know women who expressed shock about Trump who, slept with every jock on the football team. People are fickle. Whether it is Trump or Biden or whoever, wouldn't it be refreshing to all of us if we could actually informed of the actual truth? As far as I know there is no network or news agency that is totally non-biased and gives us the facts. Do you believe there is no corruption in voting? Whether or not it caused a difference in the last election is now irrelevant to that election. There is corruption, as much of it as possible, should be stopped. 
I also believe something should be done about social media, again we are not being fed the truth, we are being fed whatever information the provider wants us to believe. 
As for fascination Akron, I don't think it was fascination, I think a lot of people who get up everyday, pack their lunch, head off to work, pay their taxes, and try to live an ordinary life, were just tired of the crap in Washington DC. and decided to give Trump their vote. If he had pulled in his horns, stayed off Twitter, and refrained from calling his adversaries child-like nicknames, he would have won hands down. If I am still around, 2024 is going to be really interesting. For me, I hope Biden lasts that long. 
All this, and if the Democrats had ran someone other than Hillary who had legitimate substance, Trump would not have won. 

Damn, Doc...you sound like a right wing look! 😂 Damn good recap of how Trump got elected in the first place. And spot on about if he had kept his mouth shut for just a little bit, he would have easily been re-elected.

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 16:31:25 GMT -5 arkon said:

Jan 16, 2021 15:53:55 GMT -5 drjensen said:

Finally, a post on here that contains substance and civility. But, after reading all of them, our illustrious administrator muddied up the waters as is his forte' and took the civility out of his response. 
As for me, I would say that not all people are necessarily vehemently for him or against him although you are correct in stating there are those who fall into those categories. 
I support him, but not vehemently. During the election of 2016 the GOP failed to nominate a candidate that could solidify it's base. He was and is an outsider, and although he is brash and arrogant, the 'truths' he tells far outweigh his exaggerations. I use the word exaggeration rather than "lie" because I am amused by the liberal faction getting caught up in mistruths and saying they merely "misspoke." I supported him back then because of what he promised the American people. When Obama ran the first time he promised to get rid of DC lobbyists and make his administration transparent. He lied. He continued to lie, but he got by with it because no one wanted to "offend" our first non-white president and therefore be called a racist. Political correctness ran amuck!!! I do not recall ever meeting or researching a politician who doesn't lie. From local small town government all the way to the top of DC. Trump told us he would expose the corruption, he would drain the swamp, and possibly that more than anything secured my vote. We have all listened to and watched politicians who have betrayed America for their own gain. Trump screwed up this time, and he screwed up badly, this is clearly evident in his loss to Biden/Harris, two very poor candidates secured by the Democrats. The GOP needs candidates like Nikki Haley and Trey Gowdy to come to leadership. Washington does need cleaned up. However, I am pretty sure that if the corruption in DC was cleaned up in one big fell swoop, our country would greatly suffer. As bad as these guys are they do do some good and to kick their collective asses out would create national and international turmoil. Saddam Hussein was hated by a major portion of the Iranian people, however, he was also admired by many. Corrupt as he was, he maintained a certain "order" with his rule and most people will accept that and go on with their daily lives knowing full well that if the corruption does affect me too much, I can live with it.
Biden is going to be our next president. I will learn to live with that, I survived through 8 years of Obama. It strikes me as odd that people were not upset with Biden when he stated he would select a woman of color to be his running mate. If Trump would have made that statement, the liberals would be screaming "racism". Whomever is selected for a leadership role should never be held to their qualifications based on their race, gender, or religion. I have always been a bit puzzled as to when a coaching position opens in the NCAA or NFL, race becomes an issue. I think the best guy/girl should be hired, regardless of race. The percentage of players of one race or the other does not seem to come into play when we are discussing the players themselves. 
Back to Trump; I have questioned people I know as to what it is they don't like about him. The answers I get usually have no validity or IMO would not disqualify him. I know men who messed around with a lot of women, single and married, who chastised him for being a player. I know women who expressed shock about Trump who, slept with every jock on the football team. People are fickle. Whether it is Trump or Biden or whoever, wouldn't it be refreshing to all of us if we could actually informed of the actual truth? As far as I know there is no network or news agency that is totally non-biased and gives us the facts. Do you believe there is no corruption in voting? Whether or not it caused a difference in the last election is now irrelevant to that election. There is corruption, as much of it as possible, should be stopped. 
I also believe something should be done about social media, again we are not being fed the truth, we are being fed whatever information the provider wants us to believe. 
As for fascination Akron, I don't think it was fascination, I think a lot of people who get up everyday, pack their lunch, head off to work, pay their taxes, and try to live an ordinary life, were just tired of the crap in Washington DC. and decided to give Trump their vote. If he had pulled in his horns, stayed off Twitter, and refrained from calling his adversaries child-like nicknames, he would have won hands down. If I am still around, 2024 is going to be really interesting. For me, I hope Biden lasts that long. 
All this, and if the Democrats had ran someone other than Hillary who had legitimate substance, Trump would not have won. 

Okay, I exaggerated by saying "everyone" is vehemently for or against him. (I said I exaggerated rather than I misspoke -- don't wanna be labeled a liberal!)
re racism, no doubt it's becoming a mantra on The Left to scream racism, for eXample, every time a person of color is shot by the cops; regardless of circumstances it's always racially motivated. OTOH, The Right is guilty of the opposite, that race is rarely a contributing factor. If I object to athletes kneeling during the national anthem, (I do)-- am I a racist or just a guy who thinks that act is disrespectful to our flag?
One more thing, about draining the swamp. Do you really believe a lot of people Trump has brought in are any better than the swamp critters, many of whom, I'll grant you, have earned that description? Coz he sure associates with a lot of crooks.

It is nice to see a true debate here for the first time in a long time.

One thing I'll add is that I think part of the division is what exactly constitutes "The Swamp". To the right I think it mainly sees the bureaucracy as The Swamp, political appointees deciding policy with little or no expertise, incompetence and the Peter Principle on a large scale. The left defines The Swamp more on the terms of cronyism and greed, how large corporations and the wealthy infect government with their greed.

Trump's cronyism is a valid criticism, especially from the left POV. The ultimate irony however is how the Dems are now applauding the largest corporations, in fact monopolies, dictate policy for them. Dems used to campaign on how they would protect us from big corporations. Now, the Dems are using corporate America to suppress any dissent.

Trump is just a ridiculous figure to point at while the political parties are going through a fundamental change to their ideals, and a large majority of the population are just sheep who follow along, on both sides of the aisle.

Press outside the US have said we are in a 'Cold Civil War'. Hard to disagree with that assessment. Seeing the rhetoric from both sides lately does not look like de-escalation.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 18:21:45 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 17:52:21 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Damn, Doc...you sound like a right wing look! 😂 Damn good recap of how Trump got elected in the first place. And spot on about if he had kept his mouth shut for just a little bit, he would have easily been re-elected.

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 18:21:45 GMT -5 Walter said:

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

Had Trump just been the most conservative POTUS in at least a century, I would not have been so vehement about ousting him.
But he took it into the ballpark of autocracy, and in fact, to this hour, he continues to deny that the rule of law applies to him.
To me, that proclivity was evident a month after he took office and never stopped.
IMO, he was, and still is a danger to The Republic. He went places where there was no law to stop him simply because nobody thought anyone would go there.
For instance, he may pardon himself and his family. Does anyone think the FFs ever dreamed that might occur when they were writing up the pardon clause?

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 19:29:25 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

Had Trump just been the most conservative POTUS in at least a century, I would not have been so vehement about ousting him.
But he took it into the ballpark of autocracy, and in fact, to this hour, he continues to deny that the rule of law applies to him.
To me, that proclivity was evident a month after he took office and never stopped.
IMO, he was, and still is a danger to The Republic. He went places where there was no law to stop him simply because nobody thought anyone would go there.
For instance, he may pardon himself and his family. Does anyone think the FFs ever dreamed that might occur when they were writing up the pardon clause?

He is leaving office. That renders all your other blather mute.

[lz2112]

And oh yeah Arkon, kudos for trying, but our admin displays spite in it's most naked form.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 19:46:29 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 19:29:25 GMT -5 Walter said:

Had Trump just been the most conservative POTUS in at least a century, I would not have been so vehement about ousting him.
But he took it into the ballpark of autocracy, and in fact, to this hour, he continues to deny that the rule of law applies to him.
To me, that proclivity was evident a month after he took office and never stopped.
IMO, he was, and still is a danger to The Republic. He went places where there was no law to stop him simply because nobody thought anyone would go there.
For instance, he may pardon himself and his family. Does anyone think the FFs ever dreamed that might occur when they were writing up the pardon clause?

He is leaving office. That renders all your other blather mute.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 19:29:25 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

Had Trump just been the most conservative POTUS in at least a century, I would not have been so vehement about ousting him.
But he took it into the ballpark of autocracy, and in fact, to this hour, he continues to deny that the rule of law applies to him.
To me, that proclivity was evident a month after he took office and never stopped.
IMO, he was, and still is a danger to The Republic. He went places where there was no law to stop him simply because nobody thought anyone would go there.
For instance, he may pardon himself and his family. Does anyone think the FFs ever dreamed that might occur when they were writing up the pardon clause?

You are incensed about something the media has told you he may do, and Trump supporters are the ones who need to be deprogramed?

Once again Arkon I applaud your attempt. But trying to converse with the type of logic Walt has shown is tantamount to having a discussion with a dunitic.

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 19:57:43 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 19:29:25 GMT -5 Walter said:

Had Trump just been the most conservative POTUS in at least a century, I would not have been so vehement about ousting him.
But he took it into the ballpark of autocracy, and in fact, to this hour, he continues to deny that the rule of law applies to him.
To me, that proclivity was evident a month after he took office and never stopped.
IMO, he was, and still is a danger to The Republic. He went places where there was no law to stop him simply because nobody thought anyone would go there.
For instance, he may pardon himself and his family. Does anyone think the FFs ever dreamed that might occur when they were writing up the pardon clause?

You are incensed about something the media has told you he may do, and Trump supporters are the ones who need to be deprogramed?

Once again Arkon I applaud your attempt. But trying to converse with the type of logic Walt has shown is tantamount to having a discussion with a dunitic.

I'm giving you my opinion of Trump and his followers. You keep whining about me. Try not to do that.

[oujour76]

Jan 16, 2021 18:21:45 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 17:52:21 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Damn, Doc...you sound like a right wing look! 😂 Damn good recap of how Trump got elected in the first place. And spot on about if he had kept his mouth shut for just a little bit, he would have easily been re-elected.

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

His own worst enemy.

[Panama pfRedd]

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 18:21:45 GMT -5 Walter said:

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

This opinion I share as well. I never could stand the guy before he ran. Especially on The Apprentice. But after he was elected I looked beyond that and saw that he loves this country and has sacrificed a lot more than any of us ever would to try to change the direction we were heading as a nation. Over time I've come to admire President Trump and cast out any petty jealousies and hatred, which was all on me, not him.

[arkon]

Jan 16, 2021 18:57:51 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 16:31:25 GMT -5 arkon said:

Okay, I exaggerated by saying "everyone" is vehemently for or against him. (I said I exaggerated rather than I misspoke -- don't wanna be labeled a liberal!)
re racism, no doubt it's becoming a mantra on The Left to scream racism, for eXample, every time a person of color is shot by the cops; regardless of circumstances it's always racially motivated. OTOH, The Right is guilty of the opposite, that race is rarely a contributing factor. If I object to athletes kneeling during the national anthem, (I do)-- am I a racist or just a guy who thinks that act is disrespectful to our flag?
One more thing, about draining the swamp. Do you really believe a lot of people Trump has brought in are any better than the swamp critters, many of whom, I'll grant you, have earned that description? Coz he sure associates with a lot of crooks.

It is nice to see a true debate here for the first time in a long time.

One thing I'll add is that I think part of the division is what exactly constitutes "The Swamp". To the right I think it mainly sees the bureaucracy as The Swamp, political appointees deciding policy with little or no expertise, incompetence and the Peter Principle on a large scale. The left defines The Swamp more on the terms of cronyism and greed, how large corporations and the wealthy infect government with their greed.

Trump's cronyism is a valid criticism, especially from the left POV. The ultimate irony however is how the Dems are now applauding the largest corporations, in fact monopolies, dictate policy for them. Dems used to campaign on how they would protect us from big corporations. Now, the Dems are using corporate America to suppress any dissent.

Trump is just a ridiculous figure to point at while the political parties are going through a fundamental change to their ideals, and a large majority of the population are just sheep who follow along, on both sides of the aisle.

Press outside the US have said we are in a '. Seeing the rhetoric from both sides lately does not look like de-escalation.

Interesting take on the two sides' view of The Swamp. Although I've never considered it a swamp, your description of The Right's view more closely coincides with my own. Gotta point out that President Trump's administration is guilty of both. The Family cronyism is obvious, but he's also surrounded himself with a lot of people who have a good amount of -- let's say scandals overshadowing them, and more than a couple of his appointees are undoubtedly unqualified for their positions. I realize Trump isn't the first POTUS who have done likewise, but he is, after all, the subject of the thread.
As for de-escalation, I've a bad feeling, as I imagine most of us have, that things between the Far Right and the Far Left will get a good deal worse before they ever get better... and that, I'm afraid, isn't coming any time soon. I fear for the USA my grandkids are going to be confronted with if a major miracle doesn't happen.

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 20:11:52 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jan 16, 2021 18:21:45 GMT -5 Walter said:

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

His own worst enemy.

That depends on what one is trying to accomplish.