A Spite Free Discussion About Donald Trump

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 20:35:59 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

This opinion I share as well. I never could stand the guy before he ran. Especially on The Apprentice. But after he was elected I looked beyond that and saw that he loves this country and has sacrificed a lot more than any of us ever would to try to change the direction we were heading as a nation. Over time I've come to admire President Trump and cast out any petty jealousies and hatred, which was all on me, not him.

I had hopes that Trump might be the guy who could both handle the far right and work with Democrats to bring the country together. Not only did that not happen, things got worse.
But, for instance, had he actually proposed a GOP health plan alternative to the ACA, grafted the best parts of each together and pushed it through with a bi-partisan vote, he'd have been a hero to the big, fat middle.
Instead, he pushed repeal only, and we now know he had absolutely nothing in his pocket with which to replace it.
That's just one example of partisan divisiveness that set the table for vitriol on both sides.

[arkon]

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 18:21:45 GMT -5 Walter said:

That is overly simplistic; Trump had a lot more baggage than just mouthing off.
But if you want to distill it down to its essence, yeah; had he just shut up he might have been re-elected.

But had he shut up, he wouldn't be Trump. That temperment is what got him there, so to suggest that is kind of like saying if
Eddie Van Halen had just quit playing rock songs on electric guitar he might have been a great classical guitarist.

The concept sorta misses the point.

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

You've hit the nail, but not squarely on the head. My major prob with Trump is absolutely his abrasive, to put it mildly, personality. Policywise, yes & no. Tax cuts, I'm not against, but I sure wish they'd have the sense to pass a tax cut ONLY for the middle class. I had no real prob with the Muslim ban, either, eXcept I have a more than vague feeling his motivation was at least as much about islamaphobia as it was with national security. But what really outraged me was his handling of the immigration "crisis" at our southern border. Separating children from their parents, locking them in "cages" and then deporting the parents is unconscionably evil. DHS still has been unable to find the parents of over 600 of those kids, and they may never be reunited.
I reckon I'm a never Trumper for both the reasons you cited.

[Panama pfRedd]

Jan 16, 2021 21:08:10 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 20:35:59 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

This opinion I share as well. I never could stand the guy before he ran. Especially on The Apprentice. But after he was elected I looked beyond that and saw that he loves this country and has sacrificed a lot more than any of us ever would to try to change the direction we were heading as a nation. Over time I've come to admire President Trump and cast out any petty jealousies and hatred, which was all on me, not him.

I had hopes that Trump might be the guy who could both handle the far right and work with Democrats to bring the country together. Not only did that not happen, things got worse.
But, for instance, had he actually proposed a GOP health plan alternative to the ACA, grafted the best parts of each together and pushed it through with a bi-partisan vote, he'd have been a hero to the big, fat middle.
Instead, he pushed repeal only, and we now know he had absolutely nothing in his pocket with which to replace it.
That's just one example of partisan divisiveness that set the table for vitriol on both sides.

Walter, you are intent on always avoiding what democrats have done in this while heaping hatred on Trump. You're opinion is invalid from my point of view, and many others', because you simply ignore 50% of the equation.

[oujour76]

Jan 16, 2021 20:58:41 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 20:11:52 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

His own worst enemy.

That depends on what one is trying to accomplish.

Thought winning the election was the goal.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 20:45:54 GMT -5 arkon said:

Jan 16, 2021 18:57:51 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

It is nice to see a true debate here for the first time in a long time.

One thing I'll add is that I think part of the division is what exactly constitutes "The Swamp". To the right I think it mainly sees the bureaucracy as The Swamp, political appointees deciding policy with little or no expertise, incompetence and the Peter Principle on a large scale. The left defines The Swamp more on the terms of cronyism and greed, how large corporations and the wealthy infect government with their greed.

Trump's cronyism is a valid criticism, especially from the left POV. The ultimate irony however is how the Dems are now applauding the largest corporations, in fact monopolies, dictate policy for them. Dems used to campaign on how they would protect us from big corporations. Now, the Dems are using corporate America to suppress any dissent.

Trump is just a ridiculous figure to point at while the political parties are going through a fundamental change to their ideals, and a large majority of the population are just sheep who follow along, on both sides of the aisle.

Press outside the US have said we are in a '. Seeing the rhetoric from both sides lately does not look like de-escalation.

Interesting take on the two sides' view of The Swamp. Although I've never considered it a swamp, your description of The Right's view more closely coincides with my own. Gotta point out that President Trump's administration is guilty of both. The Family cronyism is obvious, but he's also surrounded himself with a lot of people who have a good amount of -- let's say scandals overshadowing them, and more than a couple of his appointees are undoubtedly unqualified for their positions. I realize Trump isn't the first POTUS who have done likewise, but he is, after all, the subject of the thread.
As for de-escalation, I've a bad feeling, as I imagine most of us have, that things between the Far Right and the Far Left will get a good deal worse before they ever get better... and that, I'm afraid, isn't coming any time soon. I fear for the USA my grandkids are going to be confronted with if a major miracle doesn't happen.

I don't have Grandkids, but have nieces and nephews, and they are voting for things that will bankrupt them. I'm to the point now that, I don't care. It is their country to live in, and their right to chose how to live. I'm young by the standards here, but at 55 I've lived a full life that I am happy with. Never having married and no kids also gives me a IDGAF attitude most people cannot have at my age.

If I had progeny to worry about, I may think differently. My 78 year old Mom at Christmas said "I'm happy I won't live to see what is coming. I worry about you and ..." and then mentioned me, my sister, nieces and nephews.

I said to her "They're voting for it, it's their life"

Mom said "I know, but it makes your heart ache when you see your child destroy themselves".

She crushed me with that because while agreeing on a current point, she told me in a small way what I put her through 40 years ago.

But to your base point, what you fear we may have to confront in our lifetimes.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 21:11:12 GMT -5 arkon said:

Jan 16, 2021 19:09:50 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

You hating him based on policy is fine. Others that agreed with him on policy attacked him just because they hated his personality. I think the author of this thread, Arkon is one of those, and that I do not understand. I hated Trump's personality as well, but I could look past it on policy grounds.

You've hit the nail, but not squarely on the head. My major prob with Trump is absolutely his abrasive, to put it mildly, personality. Policywise, yes & no. Tax cuts, I'm not against, but I sure wish they'd have the sense to pass a tax cut ONLY for the middle class. I had no real prob with the Muslim ban, either, eXcept I have a more than vague feeling his motivation was at least as much about islamaphobia as it was with national security. But what really outraged me was his handling of the immigration "crisis" at our southern border. Separating children from their parents, locking them in "cages" and then deporting the parents is unconscionably evil. DHS still has been unable to find the parents of over 600 of those kids, and they may never be reunited.
I reckon I'm a never Trumper for both the reasons you cited.

That policy was put in place by Obama, and Biden.

Let me guess, you voted for what you abhor.

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 21:12:09 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Jan 16, 2021 21:08:10 GMT -5 Walter said:

I had hopes that Trump might be the guy who could both handle the far right and work with Democrats to bring the country together. Not only did that not happen, things got worse.
But, for instance, had he actually proposed a GOP health plan alternative to the ACA, grafted the best parts of each together and pushed it through with a bi-partisan vote, he'd have been a hero to the big, fat middle.
Instead, he pushed repeal only, and we now know he had absolutely nothing in his pocket with which to replace it.
That's just one example of partisan divisiveness that set the table for vitriol on both sides.

Walter, you are intent on always avoiding what democrats have done in this while heaping hatred on Trump. You're opinion is invalid from my point of view, and many others', because you simply ignore 50% of the equation.

Really?
You mean, to cite my example, Trump had a healthcare plan?
How 'bout a comprehensive immigration reform plan? Infrastructure plan?
Democrats had all of those. Trump had none of them.
See a pattern?

[Panama pfRedd]

Jan 16, 2021 23:22:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 21:12:09 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Walter, you are intent on always avoiding what democrats have done in this while heaping hatred on Trump. You're opinion is invalid from my point of view, and many others', because you simply ignore 50% of the equation.

Really?
You mean, to cite my example, Trump had a healthcare plan?
How 'bout a comprehensive immigration reform plan? Infrastructure plan?
Democrats had all of those. Trump had none of them.
See a pattern?

Try to keep up wally.

[lz2112]

Jan 16, 2021 23:22:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 21:12:09 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Walter, you are intent on always avoiding what democrats have done in this while heaping hatred on Trump. You're opinion is invalid from my point of view, and many others', because you simply ignore 50% of the equation.

See a pattern?

I do, I see a loved one who has spiraled into dementia, and the demented individual is aggressively refusing help.

[arkon]

Jan 16, 2021 22:00:15 GMT -5 lz2112 said:

Jan 16, 2021 20:45:54 GMT -5 arkon said:

Interesting take on the two sides' view of The Swamp. Although I've never considered it a swamp, your description of The Right's view more closely coincides with my own. Gotta point out that President Trump's administration is guilty of both. The Family cronyism is obvious, but he's also surrounded himself with a lot of people who have a good amount of -- let's say scandals overshadowing them, and more than a couple of his appointees are undoubtedly unqualified for their positions. I realize Trump isn't the first POTUS who have done likewise, but he is, after all, the subject of the thread.
As for de-escalation, I've a bad feeling, as I imagine most of us have, that things between the Far Right and the Far Left will get a good deal worse before they ever get better... and that, I'm afraid, isn't coming any time soon. I fear for the USA my grandkids are going to be confronted with if a major miracle doesn't happen.

I don't have Grandkids, but have nieces and nephews, and they are voting for things that will bankrupt them. I'm to the point now that, I don't care. It is their country to live in, and their right to chose how to live. I'm young by the standards here, but at 55 I've lived a full life that I am happy with. Never having married and no kids also gives me a IDGAF attitude most people cannot have at my age.

If I had progeny to worry about, I may think differently. My 78 year old Mom at Christmas said "I'm happy I won't live to see what is coming. I worry about you and ..." and then mentioned me, my sister, nieces and nephews.

I said to her "They're voting for it, it's their life"

Mom said "I know, but it makes your heart ache when you see your child destroy themselves".

She crushed me with that because while agreeing on a current point, she told me in a small way what I put her through 40 years ago.

But to your base point, what you fear we may have to confront in our lifetimes.

Our fears seem to be of different futures. You fear, I take it, a Venezuela style socialist America, mine is of an America that becomes increasingly divided with more and more violent confrontations, where it's not safe to be in the streets.
And, btw, I wrote in Gov. Kasich's name. The only time I ever voted for a Dem was in '76, to vote AGAINST Gerald Ford, and Jimmy Carter was a good guy. Failed as president, though.

[Walter]

Jan 16, 2021 21:29:24 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jan 16, 2021 20:58:41 GMT -5 Walter said:

That depends on what one is trying to accomplish.

Thought winning the election was the goal.

That's the problem, perfectly put.
No. The goal is to work to improve the lives of as many Americans as you can, and in doing so win their vote.
Trump's goal was to win re-election by any means necessary, including making things worse and selling it to a willing base ready to believe any "alternate facts" he made up that his opponents caused it.
Then, when it was noted that he held the reins of government, not his opponents, we witnessed the birth of "The Deep State" to attempt to explain it.

[oujour76]

Jan 15, 2021 19:25:11 GMT -5 arkon said:

Jan 15, 2021 14:49:42 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

This reply isn't about Trump, but politics in general. Just saw this video of Ricky Gervais. He gets it...whole clip is good, but the relevant political commentary starts about the 10:30 mark.

He does get it, but it kinda pisses me that I'm either Hitler or Trotsky.

Bill Maher gets it too. So, Maybe there’s hope.

www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/01/16/maher_lets_not_confuse_5000_people_with_74_million_you_can_hate_trump_but_not_all_his_supporters.html#!

[AlaCowboy]

Jan 16, 2021 23:22:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 16, 2021 21:12:09 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Walter, you are intent on always avoiding what democrats have done in this while heaping hatred on Trump. You're opinion is invalid from my point of view, and many others', because you simply ignore 50% of the equation.

Really?
You mean, to cite my example, Trump had a healthcare plan?
How 'bout a comprehensive immigration reform plan? Infrastructure plan?
Democrats had all of those. Trump had none of them.
See a pattern?

There was a health care plan in place when Trump became president. His administration made some changes, but the plan is still in place as he leaves office. There was also an immigration plan in place when he took office and it is still in place today. The Trump administration failed in any total reforms of health care and immigration, but there are programs in place.
Every administration, Democrat and Republican, promises "comprehensive" plans for many issues. Obama promised a comprehensive immigration plan, and a comprehensive infrastructure plan. Never saw them. Did you complain about Obama?
This was meant to be a civil discussion, but you contaminated it with your first post. I generally ignore Akron here but I joined in here to have some constructive discussion. Too bad you have come in to Willie up the thread.

[Walter]

Jan 17, 2021 15:04:50 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Jan 16, 2021 23:22:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

Really?
You mean, to cite my example, Trump had a healthcare plan?
How 'bout a comprehensive immigration reform plan? Infrastructure plan?
Democrats had all of those. Trump had none of them.
See a pattern?

There was a health care plan in place when Trump became president. His administration made some changes, but the plan is still in place as he leaves office. There was also an immigration plan in place when he took office and it is still in place today. The Trump administration failed in any total reforms of health care and immigration, but there are programs in place.
Every administration, Democrat and Republican, promises "comprehensive" plans for many issues. Obama promised a comprehensive immigration plan, and a comprehensive infrastructure plan. Never saw them. Did you complain about Obama?
This was meant to be a civil discussion, but you contaminated it with your first post. I generally ignore Akron here but I joined in here to have some constructive discussion. Too bad you have come in to Willie up the thread.

If you never saw Obama's plans, it is only because you were not looking.
Unlike Trump who proposed nothing, Obama proposed comprehensive immigration reform, for instance. It even passed the Senate with a bi-partisan majority...only to die in the House.

[AlaCowboy]

Jan 17, 2021 15:58:57 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jan 17, 2021 15:04:50 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

There was a health care plan in place when Trump became president. His administration made some changes, but the plan is still in place as he leaves office. There was also an immigration plan in place when he took office and it is still in place today. The Trump administration failed in any total reforms of health care and immigration, but there are programs in place.
Every administration, Democrat and Republican, promises "comprehensive" plans for many issues. Obama promised a comprehensive immigration plan, and a comprehensive infrastructure plan. Never saw them. Did you complain about Obama?
This was meant to be a civil discussion, but you contaminated it with your first post. I generally ignore Akron here but I joined in here to have some constructive discussion. Too bad you have come in to Willie up the thread.

If you never saw Obama's plans, it is only because you were not looking.
Unlike Trump who proposed nothing, Obama proposed comprehensive immigration reform, for instance. It even passed the Senate with a bi-partisan majority...only to die in the House.

"Having a plan" means nothing if it doesn't pass. Had there been compromise in the House it might have passed. Had Democrats compromised with Republicans in the last 12 years there might have been more accomplished that lasted.
Had Republicans compromised compromised with Democrats in those last 12 years more would also have been accomplished. Willful refusal to compromise has been the problem and will continue to be the problem. Both parties are equally guilty.