Why Is the IRS Involved in Seizing 4473's?

[dilligaf]

Jun 20, 2023 6:31:26 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 19, 2023 20:06:10 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

The forms belong to ATF, and it is specifically illegal for ATF to compile a list of gunowners based on 4473's. 
There is absolutely NO reason for ATF to remove those forms from the premises, other than using the pertinent ones to prosecute an individual for misrepresenting himself to the ATF.

I wasn't in the store.  The store owner WAS.  I'll take HIS estimate of the number of armed Bitem-controlled thugs.
Maybe at some point, someone will release the store's security camera footage, so we can count for ourselves.  He said the thugs were cordial and pleasant, but no one would tell him why they were there, and the copy of the search warrant he was given had many redacted portions in it.
The store owner also said he has a good relationship with ATF, but he believes this raid was political because he sells a lot of LEGAL AR and AK styled rifles.

There is no information on a 4473 that is useful to the IRS.

Just so we will have some reference if we ever see this tape, what exactly would you say constitutes, 'heavily armed' as opposed to 'armed'? What should we see these twenty agents carrying to cross that threshold from armed to heavily armed?

We should see those agents carrying NOTHING.  The shop owner has said he has had a good relationship with ATF in the past, so all that was needed was 4 agents in suits, empty-handed, carrying concealed handguns under their coats.   Depending on the amount of records they seized, they could call in extra agents, dressed casually, to help them carry the boxes out.

There was absolutely NO need to send them in dressed like soldiers in Ukraine.

Bitem's FBI and DoJ have overreacted EVERY TIME they deal with a white collar conservative.

Look at how they looked like an invading army at Lar a Lago.   All they had to do was call Trump's SS detail, and tell them they would be there in 5 minutes with a search warrant.   The SS agents would know that this was no attack, and could have let Trump know.
That whole thing was staged for the media in order to embarrass the former President.

[Walter]

Jun 20, 2023 12:44:49 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 20, 2023 6:31:26 GMT -5 Walter said:

Just so we will have some reference if we ever see this tape, what exactly would you say constitutes, 'heavily armed' as opposed to 'armed'? What should we see these twenty agents carrying to cross that threshold from armed to heavily armed?

We should see those agents carrying NOTHING.  The shop owner has said he has had a good relationship with ATF in the past, so all that was needed was 4 agents in suits, empty-handed, carrying concealed handguns under their coats.   Depending on the amount of records they seized, they could call in extra agents, dressed casually, to help them carry the boxes out.

There was absolutely NO need to send them in dressed like soldiers in Ukraine.

Bitem's FBI and DoJ have overreacted EVERY TIME they deal with a white collar conservative.

Look at how they looked like an invading army at Lar a Lago.   All they had to do was call Trump's SS detail, and tell them they would be there in 5 minutes with a search warrant.   The SS agents would know that this was no attack, and could have let Trump know.
That whole thing was staged for the media in order to embarrass the former President.

By his own admission, the shop has been visited and been under surveillance by the FBI and was scrutinized by other agencies for the past two years.

"...The federal scrutiny began two years ago and has involved various agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Occupational Safety & Health Administration, the Department of Homeland Security, and now, the Internal Revenue Service..." - shop owner Van Hoose

SOMETHING has put this shop on somebody's radar...

[dilligaf]

Jun 20, 2023 12:58:08 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 20, 2023 12:44:49 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

We should see those agents carrying NOTHING.  The shop owner has said he has had a good relationship with ATF in the past, so all that was needed was 4 agents in suits, empty-handed, carrying concealed handguns under their coats.   Depending on the amount of records they seized, they could call in extra agents, dressed casually, to help them carry the boxes out.

There was absolutely NO need to send them in dressed like soldiers in Ukraine.

Bitem's FBI and DoJ have overreacted EVERY TIME they deal with a white collar conservative.

Look at how they looked like an invading army at Lar a Lago.   All they had to do was call Trump's SS detail, and tell them they would be there in 5 minutes with a search warrant.   The SS agents would know that this was no attack, and could have let Trump know.
That whole thing was staged for the media in order to embarrass the former President.

By his own admission, the shop has been visited and been under surveillance by the FBI and was scrutinized by other agencies for the past two years.

"...The federal scrutiny began two years ago and has involved various agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Occupational Safety & Health Administration, the Department of Homeland Security, and now, the Internal Revenue Service..." - shop owner Van Hoose

SOMETHING has put this shop on somebody's radar...

What happened 2 years ago?

Yes, we know his shop has been harassed by many federal agencies.

There was still NO NEED to use storm troopers on this latest raid.

Let's see an unredacted version of the search warrant.

I gave you a sensible answer about armed agents, and you twist the conversation to something else.   The man doesn't want to lose his FFL license, so he knows better than to physically resist whatever Bitem's goons do.

[Walter]

Jun 20, 2023 13:16:13 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 20, 2023 12:58:08 GMT -5 Walter said:

By his own admission, the shop has been visited and been under surveillance by the FBI and was scrutinized by other agencies for the past two years.

"...The federal scrutiny began two years ago and has involved various agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Occupational Safety & Health Administration, the Department of Homeland Security, and now, the Internal Revenue Service..." - shop owner Van Hoose

SOMETHING has put this shop on somebody's radar...

What happened 2 years ago?

Yes, we know his shop has been harassed by many federal agencies.

There was still NO NEED to use storm troopers on this latest raid.

Let's see an unredacted version of the search warrant.

I gave you a sensible answer about armed agents, and you twist the conversation to something else.   The man doesn't want to lose his FFL license, so he knows better than to physically resist whatever Bitem's goons do.

Not going to speculate. There could all sorts of reasons for the response.
We don't even know for certain if the shop is the target of the investigation.

[dilligaf]

Jun 20, 2023 14:26:32 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 20, 2023 13:16:13 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

What happened 2 years ago?

Yes, we know his shop has been harassed by many federal agencies.

There was still NO NEED to use storm troopers on this latest raid.

Let's see an unredacted version of the search warrant.

I gave you a sensible answer about armed agents, and you twist the conversation to something else.   The man doesn't want to lose his FFL license, so he knows better than to physically resist whatever Bitem's goons do.

Not going to speculate. There could all sorts of reasons for the response.
We don't even know for certain if the shop is the target of the investigation.

There is no speculation needed to know that storm troopers were unnecessary.   The fact also remains that there is nothing on a Form 4473 that the IRS can use.
I gave you a link to the entire Form 4473.   Did you bother to look at it?
Of course the crooked feds are not going to tell the public what they are looking for.

[daleko]

Jun 19, 2023 20:06:10 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 19, 2023 1:08:46 GMT -5 daleko said:

Who owns the forms Mutt? The .Gov. The FFL stores them. 

Something about this story stinks. 

There are only 2,000 IRS Special Agents in the country. And they are the only ones armed. BumFucq Montana doesn't seem to be big enough to attract them. But I guess I could be wrong. 

The forms belong to ATF, and it is specifically illegal for ATF to compile a list of gunowners based on 4473's. 
There is absolutely NO reason for ATF to remove those forms from the premises, other than using the pertinent ones to prosecute an individual for misrepresenting himself to the ATF.

I wasn't in the store.  The store owner WAS.  I'll take HIS estimate of the number of armed Bitem-controlled thugs.
Maybe at some point, someone will release the store's security camera footage, so we can count for ourselves.  He said the thugs were cordial and pleasant, but no one would tell him why they were there, and the copy of the search warrant he was given had many redacted portions in it.
The store owner also said he has a good relationship with ATF, but he believes this raid was political because he sells a lot of LEGAL AR and AK styled rifles.

There is no information on a 4473 that is useful to the IRS.

Yep the forms belong to the ATF. That was my point. I’ve been involved in over 200 audits and another 100 visits. While I guess they could have been legally armed, They never were. There is no reason to have the limited IRS resource involved. There are only 2000 throughout the USA. All the ATF had to do is take the forms that are theirs. Something is missing. Maybe the FFL said you can’t take the forms that are yours. That’d be really stupid.

[Walter]

Jun 20, 2023 23:49:00 GMT -5 daleko said:

Jun 19, 2023 20:06:10 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

The forms belong to ATF, and it is specifically illegal for ATF to compile a list of gunowners based on 4473's. 
There is absolutely NO reason for ATF to remove those forms from the premises, other than using the pertinent ones to prosecute an individual for misrepresenting himself to the ATF.

I wasn't in the store.  The store owner WAS.  I'll take HIS estimate of the number of armed Bitem-controlled thugs.
Maybe at some point, someone will release the store's security camera footage, so we can count for ourselves.  He said the thugs were cordial and pleasant, but no one would tell him why they were there, and the copy of the search warrant he was given had many redacted portions in it.
The store owner also said he has a good relationship with ATF, but he believes this raid was political because he sells a lot of LEGAL AR and AK styled rifles.

There is no information on a 4473 that is useful to the IRS.

Yep the forms belong to the ATF. That was my point. I’ve been involved in over 200 audits and another 100 visits. While I guess they could have been legally armed, They never were. There is no reason to have the limited IRS resource involved. There are only 2000 throughout the USA. All the ATF had to do is take the forms that are theirs. Something is missing. Maybe the FFL said you can’t take the forms that are yours. That’d be really stupid.

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

[oujour76]

Jun 21, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 20, 2023 23:49:00 GMT -5 daleko said:

Yep the forms belong to the ATF. That was my point. I’ve been involved in over 200 audits and another 100 visits. While I guess they could have been legally armed, They never were. There is no reason to have the limited IRS resource involved. There are only 2000 throughout the USA. All the ATF had to do is take the forms that are theirs. Something is missing. Maybe the FFL said you can’t take the forms that are yours. That’d be really stupid.

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

We shall see.

[Walter]

Jun 21, 2023 9:02:10 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jun 21, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

We shall see.

Agree. Daleko's comment also rings a bell: 20 "heavily armed" (whatever that means) FLEOs in BumFck, Montana is a rare enough event to beg a few Qs all by itself on both sides.

[AlaCowboy]

Jun 21, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 20, 2023 23:49:00 GMT -5 daleko said:

Yep the forms belong to the ATF. That was my point. I’ve been involved in over 200 audits and another 100 visits. While I guess they could have been legally armed, They never were. There is no reason to have the limited IRS resource involved. There are only 2000 throughout the USA. All the ATF had to do is take the forms that are theirs. Something is missing. Maybe the FFL said you can’t take the forms that are yours. That’d be really stupid.

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

So all this began shortly after Biden took control and began using federal law enforcement agencies to intimidate lawful gun dealers? What good does it do to require a form 4473 when the Department of Injustice will not prosecute someone that lies on the form.

[Panama pfRedd]

Jun 21, 2023 11:46:01 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Jun 21, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

So all this began shortly after Biden took control and began using federal law enforcement agencies to intimidate lawful gun dealers? What good does it do to require a form 4473 when the Department of Injustice will not prosecute someone that lies on the form.

Coincidence?
No way in hell.

[Walter]

Jun 21, 2023 12:03:33 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Jun 21, 2023 11:46:01 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

So all this began shortly after Biden took control and began using federal law enforcement agencies to intimidate lawful gun dealers? What good does it do to require a form 4473 when the Department of Injustice will not prosecute someone that lies on the form.

Coincidence?
No way in hell.

Right. Cuz a POTUS is all about going after the owner of a gun shop in the middle of nowhere as priority #1 after he's sworn in.
SMH...F-ing gun nuts...Geez...

[AlaCowboy]

Jun 21, 2023 12:36:11 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 21, 2023 12:03:33 GMT -5 Panama pfRedd said:

Coincidence?
No way in hell.

Right. Cuz a POTUS is all about going after the owner of a gun shop in the middle of nowhere as priority #1 after he's sworn in.
SMH...F-ing gun nuts...Geez...

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"
Biden has stated his intention to ban so-called "assault weapons" many times. Maybe this is step 1.

Edit- Hope he doesn't trip on his next step

[dilligaf]

Jun 21, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 20, 2023 23:49:00 GMT -5 daleko said:

Yep the forms belong to the ATF. That was my point. I’ve been involved in over 200 audits and another 100 visits. While I guess they could have been legally armed, They never were. There is no reason to have the limited IRS resource involved. There are only 2000 throughout the USA. All the ATF had to do is take the forms that are theirs. Something is missing. Maybe the FFL said you can’t take the forms that are yours. That’d be really stupid.

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

BINGO!
The persecution began AFTER Bitem took office, and we all know what Bitem feels about "assault rifles."

They haven't found that the shop owner has done anything wrong, but they have picked their target, and they are going to find SOMETHING to hang on him.  They don't like it that he sells a lot of AR and AK styled semiauto sporting rifles.   They don't like it that Americans WANT to own these guns and have the right to do so.

Didn't your brainless leader declare that he was going to ban them?

[Walter]

Jun 21, 2023 23:11:42 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 21, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

A 2 year old, multi-agency investigation (FBI, DHS, ATF and IRS) of the shop tells me there is more to this than we are being told...

BINGO!
The persecution began AFTER Bitem took office, and we all know what Bitem feels about "assault rifles."

They haven't found that the shop owner has done anything wrong, but they have picked their target, and they are going to find SOMETHING to hang on him.  They don't like it that he sells a lot of AR and AK styled semiauto sporting rifles.   They don't like it that Americans WANT to own these guns and have the right to do so.

Didn't your brainless leader declare that he was going to ban them?

If that is actually true, kudos to Biden for stirring that pot.
Alas, I fear the reason is more criminally mundane than than.