Why Is the IRS Involved in Seizing 4473's?

[Walter]

Jun 28, 2023 18:57:53 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 28, 2023 18:00:39 GMT -5 Walter said:

I would have had no problem if HBiden did some time for his actions. I'm actually more pissed about the dumping of the gun than the lying on the form. IMO, THAT should have gotten some jail time all by itself, and in particular because of who did it.

I am going to take the other side and concede that I don't believe Hunter is a violent criminal who wanted a gun to go out and kill someone with.  To be honest, people like him are NOT who we should be going after on gun charges.  He is a dumbass white collar criminal who should be locked up on serious felony charges.

The real problem is thug criminals who commit crimes, get released, and then continue to commit crimes.   You don't try to "understand" why these thugs are thugs.  Everyone knows right from wrong, and when someone keeps doing wrong, the only thing HE understands is a permanent cage.  He will never be a productive citizen, so the smart thing to do is to keep him way from people who ARE productive citizens.

Y'all really need to learn that it is NOT the guns --- it is the criminals who misuse the guns.

I believe you and I agree that a gun tossed in a trash can is an invitation to having a gun ending up in the wrong hands.
I don't care who you are. That needs to be punished.
HBiden should have done time for that.

[daleko]

Jun 26, 2023 7:35:36 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 25, 2023 18:56:41 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Do you mind producing those sentencing records you claim bear this out?

If you want to reduce "gun crimes," ANYONE who is charged with a gun crime and CAN be convicted as a felon, SHOULD be convicted as a felon, and go to prison.   The gov't must STOP harassing innocent gun owners, and attacking perfectly legal guns simply because of their looks.

Here is some data on prosecutions. I am sill looking to find the article on sentencing I saw. Roughly 60% of form liars are even prosecuted, and IIRC from the missing article, in that year, only 12 served time in prison.

This from the WaPo:

In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases, according to data extracted from the U.S. attorneys’ case management system. That’s out of approximately 27 million background checks undertaken in a 12-month period.

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/lying-atf-gun-purchase-form-yields-few-prosecutions-new-data-shows/

Been traveling so maybe this has been covered but I gotta ask, when the article said, prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 , who referred them to who? The background check folks are overworked. The FFL doesn't know why the form was denied, if it was denied. They'd have no idea if someone misled their answers. They just hand a pamphlet w a phone number to the buyer.

In States that permit rec/med MJ use, many purchases are made by MJ users. IMO, many, many. Smell of weed? Take a hike. They show up the next day/week/XX with laundered clothes and breath mints. They now know how to answer the forms. There are social media sites in St L and I would presume around the country, coaching them up.

IF they answer it honestly and self deny, it goes no further. The 4473 gets filed and MAYBE entered into a spreadsheet to restrict further purchases, at that FFL or if a multi-site big box, in all sites under their purview. In which case, the buyer moves to a diff FFL, having learned. A typical big box may have 30 denied forms a week and another dozen self denies. On average 1 reversal. And then, involving the self denies, some % are just, they checked the wrong box, because they are dumber than a box of rocks. Or old and can see well. In a hurry. Or ....... Most have no idea the training a typical big box has for their counter people. Written and video is done quarterly at many locations.  

Even then you gotta prove they just didn't screw up. Good luck w that. Signs are all over most FFLs warning them about lying and, if they are doing it right, the FFL sales person can't give them any guidance.

And the form is only one variable. IDs are the biggest issue. 

[daleko]

Jun 25, 2023 12:15:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 25, 2023 10:04:29 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Walter, if you're ok with not jailing someone that admits lying on a background check form why do you insist background checks should be more stringent? It defeats the purpose of a background check if there is no penalty for providing false information and buying a gun.

First, the purpose of the background check is not just to take the word of the applicant, nor to verify that the information is all correct, but to examine records to ascertain if the applicant is suitable to possess a firearm. Lying on the app is reason to ban the applicant from being allowed to possess a firarm. Prison time is only a secondary remedy.
Sentencing records bear this out.

Second, if you are into jail time as a deterrent, is there any circumstance where a person who commits a felony crime, any felony crime, should not go to prison?

I will suggest that it has to be really "special" or be connected to something else (perhaps a felony, documented straw sale, xxxx) for someone to be prosecuted for a misleading 4473. Absent that, nsm, imo.

Should V the reality? No one will support jailing Blacks, who smoke weed, which is State legal, but illegal at the Federal level and worthy of a deny on the 4473. You have already said that, in the past, absent its connection to a 4473. One big box, I know very well, sells 80% of its firearms to Blacks. One survey suggested 75% of Blacks, in St L have, in their life, done weed. Do the math.

[daleko]

Jun 28, 2023 18:57:53 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 28, 2023 18:00:39 GMT -5 Walter said:

I would have had no problem if HBiden did some time for his actions. I'm actually more pissed about the dumping of the gun than the lying on the form. IMO, THAT should have gotten some jail time all by itself, and in particular because of who did it.

I am going to take the other side and concede that I don't believe Hunter is a violent criminal who wanted a gun to go out and kill someone with.  To be honest, people like him are NOT who we should be going after on gun charges.  He is a dumbass white collar criminal who should be locked up on serious felony charges.

The real problem is thug criminals who commit crimes, get released, and then continue to commit crimes.   You don't try to "understand" why these thugs are thugs.  Everyone knows right from wrong, and when someone keeps doing wrong, the only thing HE understands is a permanent cage.  He will never be a productive citizen, so the smart thing to do is to keep him way from people who ARE productive citizens.

Y'all really need to learn that it is NOT the guns --- it is the criminals who misuse the guns.

This.

[dilligaf]

Jun 28, 2023 23:34:22 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 28, 2023 18:57:53 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

I am going to take the other side and concede that I don't believe Hunter is a violent criminal who wanted a gun to go out and kill someone with.  To be honest, people like him are NOT who we should be going after on gun charges.  He is a dumbass white collar criminal who should be locked up on serious felony charges.

The real problem is thug criminals who commit crimes, get released, and then continue to commit crimes.   You don't try to "understand" why these thugs are thugs.  Everyone knows right from wrong, and when someone keeps doing wrong, the only thing HE understands is a permanent cage.  He will never be a productive citizen, so the smart thing to do is to keep him way from people who ARE productive citizens.

Y'all really need to learn that it is NOT the guns --- it is the criminals who misuse the guns.

I believe you and I agree that a gun tossed in a trash can is an invitation to having a gun ending up in the wrong hands.
I don't care who you are. That needs to be punished.
HBiden should have done time for that.

We're getting close.   Again, I don't believe HB is a criminal in that regard; he is just stupid.

Again, read the 4473.  If you get in a hurry, it's easy to check the wrong box, which is why I triple-check mine before I submit it.  A simple mistake can cause the ATF to label you a felon, and that is wrong.

Now if I can get you to agree that is it not the guns, but the criminals who misuse them that are the problem, THEN we can start working on a solution.
If a good guy owns a gun that shoots 1000 rounds a minute, he and his gun will never be a problem.

DON'T say "What if the gun is stolen?"  If the gun is stolen, that is a crime in and of itself.  It is the CRIMINAL who initiated whatever bad happens from that point on.
Yes, it is a good idea to lock up your guns these days, but if you don't, that is your right, and that should NOT be considered a crime.   That again is an attack on the good guys instead of the bad guys.

Do some research.   How many legally owned guns are NEVER used in crimes?  I am going to take a wild guess here and say the overwhelming majority are not.
How many guns are used in legal self defense?  We have no idea, because if a person doesn't actually shoot his gun and no one calls the cops, many of those incident are unreported.
If a guy comes at me with bad intent, and I simply raise my shirt to show him my holstered gun, and he backs off, did I use my gun for self defense?

YES.   I of course would report it to the police so they can hopefully catch the bad guy.  But other people don't think that way for various reasons.

When someone runs a stop sign and causes a wreck, we do NOT blame the good people who DO stop at stop signs.

You starting to catch on?

[dilligaf]

Jun 29, 2023 12:13:58 GMT -5 daleko said:

Jun 25, 2023 12:15:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

First, the purpose of the background check is not just to take the word of the applicant, nor to verify that the information is all correct, but to examine records to ascertain if the applicant is suitable to possess a firearm. Lying on the app is reason to ban the applicant from being allowed to possess a firarm. Prison time is only a secondary remedy.
Sentencing records bear this out.

Second, if you are into jail time as a deterrent, is there any circumstance where a person who commits a felony crime, any felony crime, should not go to prison?

I will suggest that it has to be really "special" or be connected to something else (perhaps a felony, documented straw sale, xxxx) for someone to be prosecuted for a misleading 4473. Absent that, nsm, imo.

Should V the reality? No one will support jailing Blacks, who smoke weed, which is State legal, but illegal at the Federal level and worthy of a deny on the 4473. You have already said that, in the past, absent its connection to a 4473. One big box, I know very well, sells 80% of its firearms to Blacks. One survey suggested 75% of Blacks, in St L have, in their life, done weed. Do the math.

I personally have no problem with a rope smoker owning a gun, if he has no violent criminal record.
I just don't want him touching the gun when he is high, any more than I want someone touching a gun when he is drunk.