Why Is the IRS Involved in Seizing 4473's?

[oujour76]

Jun 26, 2023 7:35:36 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 25, 2023 18:56:41 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Do you mind producing those sentencing records you claim bear this out?

If you want to reduce "gun crimes," ANYONE who is charged with a gun crime and CAN be convicted as a felon, SHOULD be convicted as a felon, and go to prison.   The gov't must STOP harassing innocent gun owners, and attacking perfectly legal guns simply because of their looks.

Here is some data on prosecutions. I am sill looking to find the article on sentencing I saw. Roughly 60% of form liars are even prosecuted, and IIRC from the missing article, in that year, only 12 served time in prison.

This from the WaPo:

In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases, according to data extracted from the U.S. attorneys’ case management system. That’s out of approximately 27 million background checks undertaken in a 12-month period.

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/lying-atf-gun-purchase-form-yields-few-prosecutions-new-data-shows/

The dancing continues. Too funny.

[Walter]

Jun 26, 2023 8:15:51 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jun 26, 2023 7:35:36 GMT -5 Walter said:

Here is some data on prosecutions. I am sill looking to find the article on sentencing I saw. Roughly 60% of form liars are even prosecuted, and IIRC from the missing article, in that year, only 12 served time in prison.

This from the WaPo:

In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases, according to data extracted from the U.S. attorneys’ case management system. That’s out of approximately 27 million background checks undertaken in a 12-month period.

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/lying-atf-gun-purchase-form-yields-few-prosecutions-new-data-shows/

The dancing continues. Too funny.

Does this mean you have any idea whatsoever what the circumstances and sentencing history might be for a similar crime by the average person?

If so, post it.
If not, start dancing.

[AlaCowboy]

Jun 25, 2023 12:15:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 25, 2023 10:04:29 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Walter, if you're ok with not jailing someone that admits lying on a background check form why do you insist background checks should be more stringent? It defeats the purpose of a background check if there is no penalty for providing false information and buying a gun.

First, the purpose of the background check is not just to take the word of the applicant, nor to verify that the information is all correct, but to examine records to ascertain if the applicant is suitable to possess a firearm. Lying on the app is reason to ban the applicant from being allowed to possess a firarm. Prison time is only a secondary remedy.
Sentencing records bear this out.

Second, if you are into jail time as a deterrent, is there any circumstance where a person who commits a felony crime, any felony crime, should not go to prison?

So the purpose of the background check is not to prevent someone that lies from buying a gun, it is simply to have a record of it so the ATF and FBI can raid the gun store years later and find out who legally bought guns. I understand your reasoning now.

[Walter]

Jun 26, 2023 8:38:22 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 26, 2023 8:15:51 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

The dancing continues. Too funny.

Does this mean you have any idea whatsoever what the circumstances and sentencing history might be for a similar crime by the average person?

If so, post it.
If not, start dancing.

According to a GAO report, most ATF emphasis on prosecutions revolve around adjacent violent circumstances simply as a matter of allocation of scant resources focused on those most prone to violence.

Sorry if that wrecks your argument, Ginger.

[Walter]

Jun 26, 2023 8:39:30 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Jun 25, 2023 12:15:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

First, the purpose of the background check is not just to take the word of the applicant, nor to verify that the information is all correct, but to examine records to ascertain if the applicant is suitable to possess a firearm. Lying on the app is reason to ban the applicant from being allowed to possess a firarm. Prison time is only a secondary remedy.
Sentencing records bear this out.

Second, if you are into jail time as a deterrent, is there any circumstance where a person who commits a felony crime, any felony crime, should not go to prison?

So the purpose of the background check is not to prevent someone that lies from buying a gun, it is simply to have a record of it so the ATF and FBI can raid the gun store years later and find out who legally bought guns. I understand your reasoning now.

Back on the bong again, eh?
How did you get that out of my comment?

[oujour76]

Jun 26, 2023 8:38:22 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 26, 2023 8:15:51 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

The dancing continues. Too funny.

Does this mean you have any idea whatsoever what the circumstances and sentencing history might be for a similar crime by the average person?

If so, post it.
If not, start dancing.

You’ve been here for years railing for ‘expanded background checks’ and whomever didn’t agree was a ‘Redhat’ that didn’t care about kids, gun deaths and blah, blah, blah. Certainly don’t recall you ever mentioning just how many had been convicted of lying on that form as part of your argument. Oh, you also used to say anyone who loses their gun and doesn’t report it should be sent to jail immediately. More blah, blah, blah. Fast forward to HB who lies in his 4473. And whose gun ends up in a trash can. Harrumph, says you. No big deal. And FFS, if your new talking point is only 12 have have been convicted, why the hell are you still pounding the drum for expanded background checks? What’s the point ? If these ‘common sense’ gun laws have no teeth, what’s the point? HB got a sweetheart deal and the whole deal was slow walked for years. It is what it is but watching you tie yourself in knots trying to justify it is funny. Keep dancing. He walked from 3 felonies. He was not required to register as a foreign agent, which he clearly was. And that would have opened up a lot more doors. It is what it is, but once again…stop pissing on my shoes.

[oujour76]

Jun 26, 2023 8:39:30 GMT -5 AlaCowboy said:

Jun 25, 2023 12:15:58 GMT -5 Walter said:

First, the purpose of the background check is not just to take the word of the applicant, nor to verify that the information is all correct, but to examine records to ascertain if the applicant is suitable to possess a firearm. Lying on the app is reason to ban the applicant from being allowed to possess a firarm. Prison time is only a secondary remedy.
Sentencing records bear this out.

Second, if you are into jail time as a deterrent, is there any circumstance where a person who commits a felony crime, any felony crime, should not go to prison?

So the purpose of the background check is not to prevent someone that lies from buying a gun, it is simply to have a record of it so the ATF and FBI can raid the gun store years later and find out who legally bought guns. I understand your reasoning now.

But, of course. And it’s why we need ‘expanded’ background checks and more gun laws. I mean, if the laws on the books aren’t being enforced, pass more laws! Brilliant!

[Walter]

Jun 26, 2023 9:01:36 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

Jun 26, 2023 8:38:22 GMT -5 Walter said:

Does this mean you have any idea whatsoever what the circumstances and sentencing history might be for a similar crime by the average person?

If so, post it.
If not, start dancing.

You’ve been here for years railing for ‘expanded background checks’ and whomever didn’t agree was a ‘Redhat’ that didn’t care about kids, gun deaths and blah, blah, blah. Certainly don’t recall you ever mentioning just how many had been convicted of lying on that form as part of your argument. Oh, you also used to say anyone who loses their gun and doesn’t report it should be sent to jail immediately. More blah, blah, blah. Fast forward to HB who lies in his 4473. And whose gun ends up in a trash can. Harrumph, says you. No big deal. And FFS, if your new talking point is only 12 have have been convicted, why the hell are you still pounding the drum for expanded background checks? What’s the point ? If these ‘common sense’ gun laws have no teeth, what’s the point? HB got a sweetheart deal and the whole deal was slow walked for years. It is what it is but watching you tie yourself in knots trying to justify it is funny. Keep dancing. He walked from 3 felonies. He was not required to register as a foreign agent, which he clearly was. And that would have opened up a lot more doors. It is what it is, but once again…stop pissing on my shoes.

You want to put aside politics and talk gun laws? Say the word. Take HB out of the discussion, or conversely include every good guy with a gun who has a substance abuse issue, from weed to alcohol to meth to opiates and we'll see where it goes.

But don't pretend this isn't primarily you just miffed that Biden's son escaped jail time.
For a guy who doesn't care if Trump is tried or not for his crimes, you obviously have a political issue with Hunter Biden's case that has nothing to do with gun control.

[oujour76]

Jun 26, 2023 17:18:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 26, 2023 9:01:36 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

You’ve been here for years railing for ‘expanded background checks’ and whomever didn’t agree was a ‘Redhat’ that didn’t care about kids, gun deaths and blah, blah, blah. Certainly don’t recall you ever mentioning just how many had been convicted of lying on that form as part of your argument. Oh, you also used to say anyone who loses their gun and doesn’t report it should be sent to jail immediately. More blah, blah, blah. Fast forward to HB who lies in his 4473. And whose gun ends up in a trash can. Harrumph, says you. No big deal. And FFS, if your new talking point is only 12 have have been convicted, why the hell are you still pounding the drum for expanded background checks? What’s the point ? If these ‘common sense’ gun laws have no teeth, what’s the point? HB got a sweetheart deal and the whole deal was slow walked for years. It is what it is but watching you tie yourself in knots trying to justify it is funny. Keep dancing. He walked from 3 felonies. He was not required to register as a foreign agent, which he clearly was. And that would have opened up a lot more doors. It is what it is, but once again…stop pissing on my shoes.

You want to put aside politics and talk gun laws? Say the word. Take HB out of the discussion, or conversely include every good guy with a gun who has a substance abuse issue, from weed to alcohol to meth to opiates and we'll see where it goes.

But don't pretend this isn't primarily you just miffed that Biden's son escaped jail time.
For a guy who doesn't care if Trump is tried or not for his crimes, you obviously have a political issue with Hunter Biden's case that has nothing to do with gun control.

Not miffed. Said from the start those with power, money, influence, connections, etc. get treated differently by the law. And by different, read better. HB got a sweetheart deal because of who his family is. He’s in a protected political class. And yes, happens with both sides of the aisle. He walked from 3 felonies. Didn’t get charged with not registering as a foreign agent despite a long list of suspicious bank transactions and a series of LLC’s that has money laundering written all over it. He was an ATM for his family. He got special treatment and it is what it is. Again, stop pissing on my shoes. And with that I am retiring for the evening…my daughter got married this weekend and I’m beat. See all you derelicts in day or so.

[Deleted]

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[Panama pfRedd]

Jun 27, 2023 7:08:05 GMT -5 @jimimiles said:

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Go back to where you came from.

[dilligaf]

Jun 26, 2023 7:35:36 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 25, 2023 18:56:41 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Do you mind producing those sentencing records you claim bear this out?

If you want to reduce "gun crimes," ANYONE who is charged with a gun crime and CAN be convicted as a felon, SHOULD be convicted as a felon, and go to prison.   The gov't must STOP harassing innocent gun owners, and attacking perfectly legal guns simply because of their looks.

Here is some data on prosecutions. I am sill looking to find the article on sentencing I saw. Roughly 60% of form liars are even prosecuted, and IIRC from the missing article, in that year, only 12 served time in prison.

This from the WaPo:

In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases, according to data extracted from the U.S. attorneys’ case management system. That’s out of approximately 27 million background checks undertaken in a 12-month period.

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/lying-atf-gun-purchase-form-yields-few-prosecutions-new-data-shows/

When your chances of getting a conviction are iffy, due to weak evidence or whatever, it's kind of futile to prosecute.   This is true on ANY level of the court system.

When you have a known drug addict like Hunter Bitem, conviction would most likely be 100%.  There is also the little matter of his dumping a handgun in a trash can, thereby putting the general public at risk.

There is no excuse for not prosecuting him, other than the fact that his daddy is POTUS.

[dilligaf]

Jun 26, 2023 17:18:16 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 26, 2023 9:01:36 GMT -5 oujour76 said:

You’ve been here for years railing for ‘expanded background checks’ and whomever didn’t agree was a ‘Redhat’ that didn’t care about kids, gun deaths and blah, blah, blah. Certainly don’t recall you ever mentioning just how many had been convicted of lying on that form as part of your argument. Oh, you also used to say anyone who loses their gun and doesn’t report it should be sent to jail immediately. More blah, blah, blah. Fast forward to HB who lies in his 4473. And whose gun ends up in a trash can. Harrumph, says you. No big deal. And FFS, if your new talking point is only 12 have have been convicted, why the hell are you still pounding the drum for expanded background checks? What’s the point ? If these ‘common sense’ gun laws have no teeth, what’s the point? HB got a sweetheart deal and the whole deal was slow walked for years. It is what it is but watching you tie yourself in knots trying to justify it is funny. Keep dancing. He walked from 3 felonies. He was not required to register as a foreign agent, which he clearly was. And that would have opened up a lot more doors. It is what it is, but once again…stop pissing on my shoes.

You want to put aside politics and talk gun laws? Say the word. Take HB out of the discussion, or conversely include every good guy with a gun who has a substance abuse issue, from weed to alcohol to meth to opiates and we'll see where it goes.

But don't pretend this isn't primarily you just miffed that Biden's son escaped jail time.
For a guy who doesn't care if Trump is tried or not for his crimes, you obviously have a political issue with Hunter Biden's case that has nothing to do with gun control.

If someone with a drug problem lies about it on a Form 4473, he has committed a felony.   I don't care if he is a priest or a peon.
But again, most people who plan to commit crimes with firearms do not buy them from gun stores.   They know that gun can be traced back to them.
It's also cheaper to buy a stolen one in a back alley, or steal one for yourself.

I understand you don't care about criminals, but every time there is a big drug raid with large amounts of drugs, money and guns involved, invariably a large number of those guns are stolen.

To be fair, a drug addict is not necessarily a bad person, and he might want a gun simply to protect his family, just like millions of non-addicts do.
But the Feds have decided that crackheads like Hunter Biden should not own guns, and the law is the law.  He should be a convicted felon now.

I'm sure you want Trump convicted on EVERY charge he is facing, don't you?   No plea bargains for Trump, right?

[Walter]

Jun 28, 2023 12:59:08 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

Jun 26, 2023 7:35:36 GMT -5 Walter said:

Here is some data on prosecutions. I am sill looking to find the article on sentencing I saw. Roughly 60% of form liars are even prosecuted, and IIRC from the missing article, in that year, only 12 served time in prison.

This from the WaPo:

In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases, according to data extracted from the U.S. attorneys’ case management system. That’s out of approximately 27 million background checks undertaken in a 12-month period.

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/lying-atf-gun-purchase-form-yields-few-prosecutions-new-data-shows/

When your chances of getting a conviction are iffy, due to weak evidence or whatever, it's kind of futile to prosecute.   This is true on ANY level of the court system.

When you have a known drug addict like Hunter Bitem, conviction would most likely be 100%.  There is also the little matter of his dumping a handgun in a trash can, thereby putting the general public at risk.

There is no excuse for not prosecuting him, other than the fact that his daddy is POTUS.

I would have had no problem if HBiden did some time for his actions. I'm actually more pissed about the dumping of the gun than the lying on the form. IMO, THAT should have gotten some jail time all by itself, and in particular because of who did it.

[dilligaf]

Jun 28, 2023 18:00:39 GMT -5 Walter said:

Jun 28, 2023 12:59:08 GMT -5 dilligaf said:

When your chances of getting a conviction are iffy, due to weak evidence or whatever, it's kind of futile to prosecute.   This is true on ANY level of the court system.

When you have a known drug addict like Hunter Bitem, conviction would most likely be 100%.  There is also the little matter of his dumping a handgun in a trash can, thereby putting the general public at risk.

There is no excuse for not prosecuting him, other than the fact that his daddy is POTUS.

I would have had no problem if HBiden did some time for his actions. I'm actually more pissed about the dumping of the gun than the lying on the form. IMO, THAT should have gotten some jail time all by itself, and in particular because of who did it.

I am going to take the other side and concede that I don't believe Hunter is a violent criminal who wanted a gun to go out and kill someone with.  To be honest, people like him are NOT who we should be going after on gun charges.  He is a dumbass white collar criminal who should be locked up on serious felony charges.

The real problem is thug criminals who commit crimes, get released, and then continue to commit crimes.   You don't try to "understand" why these thugs are thugs.  Everyone knows right from wrong, and when someone keeps doing wrong, the only thing HE understands is a permanent cage.  He will never be a productive citizen, so the smart thing to do is to keep him way from people who ARE productive citizens.

Y'all really need to learn that it is NOT the guns --- it is the criminals who misuse the guns.