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Post by Walter on Jan 4, 2023 23:20:00 GMT -5
I'll answer. No. God did not speak to Moses, carve stone or part the sea. No. Jesus is not an incarnation of a deity. Bonus answer: God didn't speak to Noah nor has it ever conversed with anyone else that ever lived. Are we clear? And you know this how, exactly? Do tell. Secondly, do you agree with the implication of your hypothesis that the canonical Gospels and Pauline Epistles are fictional-- i.e., that the Apostles were just making up their alleged witness testimony about the life and resurrection of Christ? 1) It is the same reasoning that drives my skepticism about dragons, witches, sorcerers, talking snakes, Santa Claus, the chemistry that could turn a carbon-based life form into sodium chlorine, and a thousand other great stories that humans use to explain the world around them. I could be wrong of course, but you asked me HOW I know it. 2) I believe that a lot of the terrestrial stories in the NT may have happened roughly as they were told, that Jesus existed and spread his ideas to those around him. But Son of God? Resurrection? Water to wine? Re-animating the dead? Uh...no. |
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Post by DrSchadenfreude on Jan 5, 2023 12:02:00 GMT -5
And you know this how, exactly? Do tell. Secondly, do you agree with the implication of your hypothesis that the canonical Gospels and Pauline Epistles are fictional-- i.e., that the Apostles were just making up their alleged witness testimony about the life and resurrection of Christ? 1) It is the same reasoning that drives my skepticism about dragons, witches, sorcerers, talking snakes, Santa Claus, the chemistry that could turn a carbon-based life form into sodium chlorine, and a thousand other great stories that humans use to explain the world around them. I could be wrong of course, but you asked me HOW I know it. 2) I believe that a lot of the terrestrial stories in the NT may have happened roughly as they were told, that Jesus existed and spread his ideas to those around him. But Son of God? Resurrection? Water to wine? Re-animating the dead? Uh...no. Got it. You believe that those who bore witness to the resurrection of Christ were just making stuff up. That kind of fits with your confirmation bias that renders you incapable of perceiving the scientific data about the Shroud of Turin, which I have studied and discussed in detail with former Air Force Academy physicist John Jackson-- the man who led the Shroud of Turin University Research Project (STURP) in 1978. |
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Post by Walter on Jan 5, 2023 12:09:18 GMT -5
1) It is the same reasoning that drives my skepticism about dragons, witches, sorcerers, talking snakes, Santa Claus, the chemistry that could turn a carbon-based life form into sodium chlorine, and a thousand other great stories that humans use to explain the world around them. I could be wrong of course, but you asked me HOW I know it. 2) I believe that a lot of the terrestrial stories in the NT may have happened roughly as they were told, that Jesus existed and spread his ideas to those around him. But Son of God? Resurrection? Water to wine? Re-animating the dead? Uh...no. Got it. You believe that those who bore witness to the resurrection of Christ were just making stuff up. That kind of fits with your confirmation bias that renders you incapable of perceiving the scientific data about the Shroud of Turin, which I have studied and discussed in detail with former Air Force Academy physicist John Jackson-- the man who led the Shroud of Turin University Research Project (STURP) in 1978. Yes. They made it up, just like they made up Jesus' birthday to conveniently occur during the winter solstice, something that occurred a lot BITD to make folks appear to be more godlike. Unless you are one that believes the claims of every salesman who ever lived, you would be foolish to believe everything that is claimed, and that includes shrouds. |
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Post by DrSchadenfreude on Jan 5, 2023 12:16:08 GMT -5
Got it. You believe that those who bore witness to the resurrection of Christ were just making stuff up. That kind of fits with your confirmation bias that renders you incapable of perceiving the scientific data about the Shroud of Turin, which I have studied and discussed in detail with former Air Force Academy physicist John Jackson-- the man who led the Shroud of Turin University Research Project (STURP) in 1978. Yes. They made it up, just like they made up Jesus' birthday to conveniently occur during the winter solstice, something that occurred a lot BITD to make folks appear to be more godlike. Unless you are one that believes the claims of every salesman who ever lived, you would be foolish to believe everything that is claimed, and that includes shrouds. You should refrain from pontificating about subjects that you haven't studied or understood, including the history of the New Testament scriptures and the scientific data about the Shroud of Turin. There is far more to those complex subjects than you perceive or imagine. You are blinded by your own confirmation bias. |
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Post by Walter on Jan 5, 2023 12:35:59 GMT -5
Yes. They made it up, just like they made up Jesus' birthday to conveniently occur during the winter solstice, something that occurred a lot BITD to make folks appear to be more godlike. Unless you are one that believes the claims of every salesman who ever lived, you would be foolish to believe everything that is claimed, and that includes shrouds. You should refrain from pontificating about subjects that you haven't studied or understood, including the history of the New Testament scriptures and the scientific data about the Shroud of Turin. There is far more to those complex subjects than you perceive or imagine. You are blinded by your own confirmation bias. As I said, in the end it is a matter of faith, and you will not find that in any book. So stop with your "I studied this stuff and you didn't." You can study it til the cows come home, but without faith, you have nothing. |
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Post by DrSchadenfreude on Jan 5, 2023 14:50:06 GMT -5
You should refrain from pontificating about subjects that you haven't studied or understood, including the history of the New Testament scriptures and the scientific data about the Shroud of Turin. There is far more to those complex subjects than you perceive or imagine. You are blinded by your own confirmation bias. As I said, in the end it is a matter of faith, and you will not find that in any book. So stop with your "I studied this stuff and you didn't." You can study it til the cows come home, but without faith, you have nothing. It isn't only a matter of faith. That is false. It is also a matter of evidence-- evidence which your anti-Christian confirmation bias prevents you from perceiving. |
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Post by Walter on Jan 5, 2023 16:47:51 GMT -5
As I said, in the end it is a matter of faith, and you will not find that in any book. So stop with your "I studied this stuff and you didn't." You can study it til the cows come home, but without faith, you have nothing. It isn't only a matter of faith. That is false. It is also a matter of evidence-- evidence which your anti-Christian confirmation bias prevents you from perceiving. Bovine fertilizer... |
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Post by daleko on Jan 5, 2023 17:20:30 GMT -5
Bonus answer: God didn't speak to Noah nor has it ever conversed with anyone else that ever lived. Are we clear? |
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Post by oujour76 on Jan 5, 2023 17:56:39 GMT -5
Bonus answer: God didn't speak to Noah nor has it ever conversed with anyone else that ever lived. Are we clear? Riiiight! |
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Post by DrSchadenfreude on Jan 5, 2023 17:57:36 GMT -5
It isn't only a matter of faith. That is false. It is also a matter of evidence-- evidence which your anti-Christian confirmation bias prevents you from perceiving. Bovine fertilizer... In your uninformed opinion on the subject. As for the ancient Hebrew scriptures, there are obvious mythical aspects, including the Babylonian (Gilgamesh) flood epic, Tower of Babel, etc. I was referring to the evidence of the first century canonical Gospels and Pauline Epistles. |
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Post by Walter on Jan 5, 2023 18:16:24 GMT -5
In your uninformed opinion on the subject. As for the ancient Hebrew scriptures, there are obvious mythical aspects, including the Babylonian (Gilgamesh) flood epic, Tower of Babel, etc. I was referring to the evidence of the first century canonical Gospels and Pauline Epistles. Ah, so some of the stories in Hebrew scripture have 'obvious mythical aspects', but you accept others as stuff that really happened? Mighty convenient for you. |
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Post by daleko on Jan 5, 2023 18:51:44 GMT -5
In your uninformed opinion on the subject. As for the ancient Hebrew scriptures, there are obvious mythical aspects, including the Babylonian (Gilgamesh) flood epic, Tower of Babel, etc. I was referring to the evidence of the first century canonical Gospels and Pauline Epistles.
That discussion of a man made religion is separate from any discussion about a God or any discussion about what any God is or isn't, whether that God is singular in being or three. Or even if said God is a god. The Christian Religion you believe in, today, in faith, outpaced other options since the beginning and through a selection process, included the documentary evidence that promoted their beliefs, excluding those early writings that didn't. And that selection process including spin offs. Also man made. Survival of the fittest.
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is central concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons. It was first formulated as early "Christians" attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions. Was it to differentiate itself from others in that competitive world then and today? Was the NT written after the fact a look back to fit a narrative, even when looking back at ancient Hebrew text, that only the select few see? Was the NT a spin off V the exclusion of others by the Jews? All true or not it gained traction and grew.
Interesting, you pick and choose what is real and relevant from the OT and what isn't. |
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Post by DrSchadenfreude on Jan 5, 2023 19:27:45 GMT -5
In your uninformed opinion on the subject. As for the ancient Hebrew scriptures, there are obvious mythical aspects, including the Babylonian (Gilgamesh) flood epic, Tower of Babel, etc. I was referring to the evidence of the first century canonical Gospels and Pauline Epistles. And you know that it was not based on Divine revelation ("Theophany" in Greek) how, exactly? Explain how you arrived at that conclusion. Are you claiming that the New Testament witness testimony of the Apostles was all fabricated? That they were not bearing true witness to Christ's actual life, teachings, and resurrection? That the Christian-persecuting Pharisee Saul of Tarsus did not encounter Christ on the road to Damascus, as he claimed? |
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Post by daleko on Jan 5, 2023 20:19:53 GMT -5
So Christ/God created the EO? The Church of Rome? Man created both.
If you hear voices in your head, there is a term for that. Auditory hallucinations.
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Post by DrSchadenfreude on Jan 5, 2023 21:20:12 GMT -5
So Christ/God created the EO? The Church of Rome? Man created both.
If you hear voices in your head, there is a term for that. Auditory hallucinations. Oh, I see. So now you're claiming that the Apostle St. Luke's 1st century A.D. history of the Church-- the Acts of the Apostles-- is also fiction? Got it. In your man made religion, when do you goofballs think the New Testament Church in the Holy Land, Egypt, Syria, and Greece ceased to exist? Are you not aware that the current bishops, Metropolitans, and Patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches can trace their Apostolic Succession all the way back to the Apostles? |
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